For the full show notes and access to resources mentioned in this episode visit https://www.easyscaling.com/blog/episode55
In this episode, we're getting very real about dealing with tough times in business. We also have a fun time chatting about the pitfalls of personality tests, embracing your quirks as a CEO, the importance of having a growth vs. a stuck mindset, and sooo much more!
My guest is Julia DeWolfe, she is one of my coaches, a certified Cognitive Behavioral Therapy practitioner, and what she calls an 'everything coach' for entrepreneurs.
Julia is a regular guest on the podcast and together we explore the more emotional side of business ownership and dig into many of the things that I've personally struggled with or overcome in my own business.
Topics discussed:
Links/Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Jordan Schanda King:
Connect with this week’s guest Julia DeWolfe
Love what you heard? Reviews really help us out! As a thank you, you can get my 90-Day Planning Formula ($97 Value) by submitting a screenshot of your 5-star review at easyscaling.com/podcastreview
For the full show notes and access to resources mentioned in this episode visit https://www.easyscaling.com/blog/episode55
In this episode, we're getting very real about dealing with tough times in business. We also have a fun time chatting about the pitfalls of personality tests, embracing your quirks as a CEO, the importance of having a growth vs. a stuck mindset, and sooo much more!
My guest is Julia DeWolfe, she is one of my coaches, a certified Cognitive Behavioral Therapy practitioner, and what she calls an 'everything coach' for entrepreneurs.
Julia is a regular guest on the podcast and together we explore the more emotional side of business ownership and dig into many of the things that I've personally struggled with or overcome in my own business.
Topics discussed:
Links/Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Jordan Schanda King:
Connect with this week’s guest Julia DeWolfe
Love what you heard? Reviews really help us out! As a thank you, you can get my 90-Day Planning Formula ($97 Value) by submitting a screenshot of your 5-star review at easyscaling.com/podcastreview
Ep#55 - Real Talk | Getting through tough times and embracing your CEO quicks for success
Jordan: All righty. In this episode, I am chatting with Julia DeWolf, who is my coach. And if you have listened to the podcast before you know all about Julia, and you know that we'd love to dive into more the emotional side of business and specifically get into the weeds about the things that I am working through as I built this business and my struggles and, and taking those and, and turning them into hopefully food for thought, but also some actual tangible tips for you to apply to your own business journey.
We talk about some really cool stuff in this episode and it takes us a minute to get back into our groove. It's been a while since we've had, one of these conversations on the podcast, but man, this is a good one. It's quite possibly one of my most favorite conversations that I've ever had with Julia.
We talk about this idea of experiencing awe in your business, and Julia's gonna explain what that means. We talk about. Getting through really difficult times and, and I, I set the scene a little bit further into the episode about specifically what I'm talking about and, and in a very like, difficult rough patch that I hit for about six months in, in my own business that I haven't talked fully about on the podcast yet.
So I share some details and specifics about that and, and how we got through it. And then we talk a lot about personality tests and how to use them effectively. we don't say that specifically, but that's ultimately what we're trying to get at, is how to use that information effectively to help you to grow and, expand and reach your goals rather than getting stuck by them.
And we talk about, you know, all kinds of other adjacent things, to this, this more emotional side of, of doing business and, building and growing and scaling. So I hope you enjoy this conversation.
Welcome, welcome everyone, and welcome Julia, back to the podcast. It's been
Julia: forever. I know. It's nice to be
Jordan: here. It's been too long. I, I was just telling you, I'm, I'm sick of doing solo episodes and I'm sure everybody is sick of me talking at them. No, we're, we're, we're gonna get back to some conversations partly because I, I, I just enjoy it more.
It's more fun. It's more fun to riff and like see what comes
Julia: up. Absolutely. And so let's do it. We sure will see what
Jordan: comes up. We sure will. We, we actually are gonna surprise ourselves cuz we don't have an agenda. So, no, we've got some ideas. We've got some ideas. Let's, let's talk, I think first, because this is just top of mind for me.
Let's talk a little bit about what you call awe and like, I don't know, maybe you describe it, but because I'm gonna butcher it, but. I call it taking time to pat yourself on the back. Like let's, let's talk about
Julia: that first. Sure. Yeah. So this came up, on a call that we were having where you were in really patting yourself on the back.
You were in awe of some of the things that you had accomplished recently, and this is something I've been paying attention to more. I've been talking about it on my Instagram, be that when we're in a space of awe or gratitude over things that we've been able to accomplish, versus being in a space where it's, everything needs to happen, right?
In that, in that space of lack, when we're able to shift into awe and gratitude, it actually changes the way that we think about things. it changes how. Quickly we can respond to stress, how resilient we are when stressors pop up in our life. And it increases vagal tone, which everybody talks a lot about the vagus nerve and the parasympathetic nervous system.
And that's when we're, we wanna be hanging out in that zone more. All of those good things. And as business owners, I mean, you can probably attest to this, it feels like we're in stress mode all the time. And so what we were talking about was this active shift to create more awe and gratitude in your business and keep that kind of going and see what happens with your overall stress.
What did you notice after we had that conversation? ,
Jordan: I don't remember what I noticed, so maybe you can fill me in on what I noticed, but. I do know one thing that that is coming up right now and I'm pretty sure was coming up then is like this like energetic side of business and which it feels to me like more of what this is and, and I'm sure there's like some science behind it and maybe you can educate us on that, but, it feels to me like , when you pause to put yourself more in that space of.
It's almost like gratitude and appreciation. It feel those like, kind of like, feelings and states feel adjacent to this, this like sense of awe. and everyone I think knows of like all of the information out there about like, when you're in gratitude, then like, I don't know, like, oh, like good things come to you.
And I, that is what feels like what happens when you focus more on like this positive stuff of like, oh my gosh, wow, I did that. I can do that. Like, focusing on all of the things that you've done rather than, because like we have waited through a lot of garbage, especially in the last six months. We've had some like, seriously rough times in this business and in my personal life, and a lot of hard things, messy things, scary things, but.
I don't feel like we cou we would've come through it, nor would we be like compounding our success on top of all of that if that's what I was focusing on. You know, and instead being like, wow, okay, I should actually be like insanely proud of what we've built. E even through the hard times, just the fact that we have grown this business as quickly as we have, and that I have employees whose livelihoods I support and, you know, I'm able to like, I don't know, help as many people as I'm able to help.
Like, there's all kinds of things. Even in the midst of like the bad times that deserves focusing on that, then I think compounds and, and it, I think it's why we're able to get through the garbage and then stack all of these like, these like even more impressive things on top of that. And I don't know, I, I'm rambling at this point, but I'm curious what you think about that and then also what.
If you can remind me what my, what my reaction was initially, your
Julia: reaction initially was very similar to what you just said, so I think you did remember it was a lot of that feeling of realizing like, wow, things have been a lot. It was almost like a dual recognition of this is how like a bird's eye view really of this is what we've actually been going through yet this is the success that we were able to create, or the things that we kept afloat, all of it.
And it was just this moment of you were so purely impressed with yourself. It was like you got a little bird's eye view of you acting in the whole thing and all the things that you had kept running. And it was just that moment of being really like so purely proud of yourself. And it was, it was great to see because there's a lot of times where we can hype ourselves up and we can be like, yeah, I'm doing this, I'm doing that.
But that pure feeling of like, wow, I'm just so proud of myself. Like you would say to someone else, like, almost like you would say to your, to a little kid, right? Where you want them to know you're doing such a good job. And, but doing that for ourselves, it's such a great moment to have in our business, especially when we so often only focus on the things we wish were better or the next income goal or the next big thing.
many women who own their own business or CEOs, that's such a hard thing to balance, right? Is that we hit one goal and immediately we have the next. There's never the moment of celebration and like, we did it. Here we are. It's always on to the next thing. And so that that pushback of saying, no, we're going to feel gratitude, we're going to be in awe of where we are right now.
Is a, a really important pause because otherwise you're just barrelling towards being really discontent, never really feeling happy and fulfilled and getting burned out because just because of this simple step of appreciating what we've been able to do.
Jordan: do you think it's possible to, to do that and have that experience when you're in the midst of it though?
Because I'm very aware that like, people listening may be in the trenches. Like I was in the trenches. They're for, you know, four to six months. And on the other side, when things are going well, again, it, it's, it's easy to be like, oh wow. Like I'm, and I remember exactly what I was in awe about. I was in awe about the fact that I had stuck it out, like, to be honest, like, and that's why I like to talk so much about the fact that.
Being an entrepreneur is hard and that holding that risk is your job because it is your job. Like you can't, you can't expect to grow without taking risks. But I think most people are just deeply uncomfortable with holding the risk. And that's why a lot of us give up or, or don't take the risk to begin with.
So we don't build the thing that we wanna build. And so we're just kind of like, you know, status quo or we're, we're, we're running something that we're like, kind of, I don't know, not that like, excited about or, you know, whatever. But it, I, I just can't imagine experiencing that awe when I was in the thick of it.
But then once you're on the other side, it's like, holy shit. Like that was thoroughly impressive. Like, you know what I mean? And, yeah, I don't know.
Julia: How do you think it would've felt if you had felt the awe earlier?
Jordan: I just don't know if I could have, I think the doubt is so heavy when you're in the, the midst of it that like, yeah, you, and, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, maybe there were small instances of like, of, of looking at the evidence. Like we talk when we've talked about on this podcast before you and I, that there is evidence that you can usually lean on, you know, what have I done or what have I, I've been able to get through before?
Or what are some successes that I've had that I can kind of clinging to in, in these dark times, to help me get through. And so maybe it was like little miniature, moments of awe or reassurance, that existed within there because otherwise I just don't, like, I almost can't even put myself back in that place to like, think about how we got through it.
I think, I mean, maybe it was just like, I talk about this too, like you have to have. A really deep conviction about what you're doing and why you're doing it. Even when you're feeling like, like, what the hell? Why am I doing this? You know what I mean? Yeah. yeah, so
Julia: I think that's the exact part that makes this so hard, but also why I want everyone to talk about it is because what you are voicing is being in survival mode in your business, essentially, right?
Where you're kind of just getting through, you're doing what you need to do in order to get through. There are times when we need to do that, but there are a lot of times where we are compounding things right and stuff starts, starts to move into survival mode. Because that's our reaction, that's our response to it, is like, oh my God, everything's falling apart.
I, I need to act on this, this, and my life feels like it's falling apart and my business feels like it's falling apart and everything. And so then we're into survival mode, which is the exact opposite of that vagal tone that I was talking about. Right. And so that, that's where we have the two things at coming together, is that we're looking at times when we're in survival mode and saying, how do I actively get myself into a safer, calmer place so that way I can make these decisions that help me stick it out without coming out of this with like major health problems or feeling like I need to take a three year nap.
Mm-hmm. So it's really difficult. It's the exact opposite of what our brain wants to do in that time, but it's the exact thing that we need to help ourselves do as a loving adult. We need to help ourselves see. Okay. No, this, these are these glimmers of moments where that things are actually going to be, okay, I'm taking care of us.
This is what's going on. I have this plan. What's the thing I'm most afraid of happening? What are, what are three things that would need to happen in order for that worst case scenario to come true? How likely do I feel that those three things are to happen? What are some things I could do in response to each of those three things happening that may change this outcome?
Right? We start to work ourself through the worst case scenario, which starts to bring us back down to planet Earth most of the time because usually we're just out there. There's some interesting, research on when people are actively practicing more gratitude and awe, and a couple of the things that happen is that we have a more balanced view of our shortcomings.
So we're not, we're not so focused on, well, I'm really bad at this. I'm never gonna be able to make this thing happen because I know I'm bad at this. Right? Or this was all my fault. If only I had known this, then this wouldn't have happened. So we have a more balanced view of our role in situations and our, our general shortcomings.
We also have a more positive outlook over how things will go. It's like being on a hike and only looking down the hike is not fun, right? Sometimes we get in that mode. If you're on a hike and it feels like things are treacherous and there's all these rocks and roots everywhere, and you're very aware of the fact that there is a giant cliff right next to you.
And so you're so focused on the down. But if you're able to look up, suddenly the hike feels a lot more worth it because now we actually can see the view, we see where we're going, why? Why are we even doing this at all? And so that's what gratitude kind of helps us get that balance where we feel safe and secure and we're able to look.
Forward instead of looking down.
Jordan: Okay. So what, what, I'm curious because I, I resonate with a lot of what you just said because I can see how there were points in that, that low time that, that I was doing exactly those things. but I'm also curious, what I was gonna ask was how do you think I was able to get through that, that like, from your perspective, having gone through it with me, with me, but also being like outside of me, I'm curious what you saw that maybe we can pull out some tangible tips for people on, you know, things that you can do.
But, but one thing specifically that you mentioned that, that I wanna touch on is the more balanced view on your shortcomings or, or like mistakes, right? So I think. A lot happened, and, and I probably should have set this context up at the beginning, but a lot happened in, in, in a six month period. I moved across the country kind of like unexpectedly, a lot of other personal stuff, but on the business side, I, I essentially burned down an entire part of my business that was actually quite profitable, but not sustainable.
And we can talk about that. But, it was an offer that, that was selling but just wasn't working for a lot of reasons, which. When you, when you do that and you burn, you burn that down. When it's bringing in cash, there's a lull, there's a lull in replacing that income. But when you've already committed to expenses based on your level of income at that moment, or before you burned that part of your business down, now you've got a cash flow problem.
Big, big time cash flow problem. so e and, and we can even talk about like what was going on behind the scenes, like when I made that decision, knowing that this is gonna be really, really shitty financially to make this decision, but I also know it's gonna be good in the long term. And part of the awe was, wow, I turned that around and got us back to, back to the exact recurring revenue.
That we were at before I burned that offer down within six months we were back up to it, even though we had cut it probably in, in like, I don't know, over half. for sure. So, so that, that I think is, that's a really tangible, scary problem when you talk about finances. The other thing is like massive mistakes on team.
Massive, massive mistakes on team that cost me tens of thousands of dollars on top of all of this, right? And then other investments that I had made that just didn't make sense. They didn't make sense for, for where I was going with the business, but you were locked in. And so all kinds of, mostly, like the problems were related to finances.
I'll throw another added layer on here that was a failed launch, A fail, like a big, like a big failed launch. I had like very high expectations about the launch of our membership and. I mean, we sold, we sold spots, but nowhere near what I was projecting. And so all of those compounded, and they were all like problems, that like, you know, any one of those would be scary, but all stacked on top.
Huge problem. Huge, huge financial problem. so what's taking it back to like the, the balanced view of mistakes? I remember really vividly, like, even though I was super disappointed and frustrated about all of them being like, wow, I have learned some very good lessons on every single one of these fronts.
Like, great lessons. Well, I'll never do this again. Or I'm changing how I'm gonna invest and I'm like, very. Key, tangible, actionable takeaways from every single one of those problems. And that, I think, is part of like, what got me through was like, okay, well now I know, now I know this, you know, but I'm curious what else, what else you saw, or if you wanna riff on that a little bit.
Julia: Yeah, I, I agree that a huge part of what kept you moving through was the fact that you were not operating in shame around these choices, right? Stuff happened. And we did a lot of those like postmortem things, right around like, okay, this is what happened. Why did it go like that? What could, what could be different next time?
How would you honor different parts of this moving forward? Paying attention to the motivation behind certain choices, right? We've talked about that a lot of, like if we're coming at a decision because we're like, oh, with desperation almost. It almost never results in a really good feeling decision after the fact.
Right? So there was a lot of that ability to like look back at a mistake that you may actually have been in the middle of dealing with, right? And to look and say, this is how we got here. This is what I'm doing differently next time. And then onward and upward, right? Every, everything was a learning opportunity.
And that only comes when you have a really healthy view of shortcomings and also where you're not operating your business from a place of shame. And lack. Shame is such a tough spot to get out of. But if you're making decisions from that of like, oh, I should be doing this. I shouldn't have done that.
This was such a big deal. Like now my whole family's gonna fall apart if, if we're in that space, this is not the time to be making big choices, we're we're not going to make choices that feel really good. I think the other thing that was so helpful throughout this was that. You worked really hard on actively keeping your emotions at the forefront.
So we did so much work around acknowledging and validating your emotions through the whole process. Right? And because of your ability to do that, then you're able to look and say, okay, this is how I'm feeling. Of course I feel that way because X, Y, Z here's what we're gonna do, and our brains love. here's what we're gonna do.
Right? Most of the time we're all just dreaming for somebody to come in and be like, oh, here's what you gotta do. And you're like, perfect. This is what I wanted. And so you get to be the person. Once you do the acknowledgement and the validation, now you get to be the person who says, here's what we're gonna do.
And that gives you that. Look up moment, I'm really jiving with my illustration of the hike because as I was thinking about it, I was like, wow, this is so perfect. Because on top of that, now we have the looking down, plotting through survival mode, the safety and security of looking up and starting to appreciate where you're going and all that.
But then you hit the spot where you get the view and that's really the part where you're up and out of it. Right. And now you can kind of look back at where you came from, if you've ever done a hike. We live pretty close to New Hampshire, so we've done a lot of hikes up in the mountains in New Hampshire.
And I actually hate hiking, so, I always, I actually like nature walks. I don't really like actively hiking, and I very often when you get to the top you're like, wow, that's where we started. All the way down there. And it's like, okay, here we are. But the view is, Incredible. And there's also this amazing sense of pride of like, I just climbed a literal mountain.
Like how crazy cool is that? And, and so that's, I'm gonna stick with that. I'm gonna stick with that illustration of like, that's just
Jordan: a little aside, but I think you should, I, I think this is really good. And, and, and what's an interesting coincidence is, I was just talking to Blake, my husband last night about climbing mountains.
So let, let's, let's add a little layer on top of here because I think that it, it relates. So I was telling him, I was asking him if he's climbed any mountains. I've, I've climbed some mountains out in Colorado area, and in particular like fourteeners. So very, very high mountains, long hikes, you know, 8, 10, 12 hour hikes, where you're getting to the summit.
And these are not easy hikes often. And I was explaining to him that I, I have many times cried on these hikes because you're doing things that are like, Genuinely terrifying. Like, like your safety is actually probably threatened, right? Like there's, I I remember vividly climbing one mountain where I was like, I said, no, cuz, and there there was only like one mountain that I didn't actually get to the summit and I was so disappointed, but I was looking like I could actually die if I, if I do that wrong, I would die.
And I'm just not willing to like, risk my life for, for getting to the top of this mountain. So I didn't, and I actually am kind of disappointed I didn't do it. But anyway, I remember so many parts of these hikes where in the moment when you're, when you're climbing this sketchy part and you're terrified, and it's like, I, like you actually don't think you can do it.
And then you get to the top and you cry and you're like, oh my God, I like, I I did it. And you, it is that, it's that feeling of awe. And what's interesting is that when you go back down, that exact same part that it was so hard to get up, going down is crazy easy. It's like how you have this thought that crosses your mind of like, why was, why did I even have a hard time with this?
Like, if it's this easy to get down, why was it so hard to get up? You know? So there's something there. I don't know what it is, but it feels important. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. So that is literally the definition of awe, right? Is when you're out and you're, you're in awe at yourself. You're in awe of nature. I mean, you can, you can go off completely on that, right?
And that's such a. Joyous place to be. And this is why I say let's make that happen more in our lives because we can feel that way. You know, you could, you could feel that way about a tree, like the average oak tree. It's like, I don't even know, like a hundred thousand leaves or something in a, in a season.
So many leaves and we just see leaves all the time and we're like, oh, look at that. And each one's unique. And then the trees g you know, it's incredible. We, if we really take the time to slow down, we can feel a lot of awe. But yes, once we've gone up, in theory the going down should be because now you're exhausted.
The going down should be harder, but now you know what to expect. You know, the spots that were tricky for you. You also have the belief of like, well, I pulled myself up, I can get myself down. Right? And you have the goal of. I'm going home. I'm gonna take a shower. Right. We have, we have a nice, safe place to, to end up at too.
Yeah. We should work. We should
Jordan: work on this. We should. Yeah. We need to, we need to package this for sure. But I, I think there's it, you know what it reminds me of, it reminds me of giving birth as well. It's almost like it's such a transformative experience that you're actually a different person when you go down.
So that's why it doesn't seem as hard. Mm-hmm. And, and like folks listening, feel free to correct us and tell us what's going on here, if there's like an something else going on here. But, I remember, and I don't think I've talked about this on the podcast, but I have had like a very, very difficult birth, a successful vback with my second and, and, just, just very difficult, like 80 hours of labor.
Just like, just not, not right, like it was not right, not normal. And I remember pretty much immediately after telling my husband, I can do literally anything like, and I believe that and, and it has stuck with me. It's like changed who I am as a person. And so I think that's part of it too, that if you're able, and this is like, I think maybe the, the, the important inflection point that you're getting at with this awe is that at the end of those things where you get through the survival mode and you look back, you have to experience the awe in order for it to change you in a productive way.
Because if you focus on how bad it was, then you kind of like, I don't know, like I'm not an expert on energetics, but you kind of like attract that type of stuff continuously, right? Like, like it becomes like this expectation and this norm rather than like, holy shit, I am now a better person having done that and because I did it.
I know I can do other things. And so like, it becomes like a stepping stone versus like getting stuck in it, you know? Yes. Your
Julia: brain never gets the resolution, and so then what ends up happening is you're just looking for the evidence of when that will happen again, because you're afraid of it. Mm-hmm.
Because you never got to experience the closed loop, and so now your brain has to protect you from that happening again instead of understanding what you wanted to pull from it and how things will be different next time. And so there's that acknowledgement of like, yeah, okay, but now we have a plan versus that was so bad, we need to be afraid of that happening ever again.
And so now your brain will only look for evidence of the bad or the times that somebody might treat you like that or all those things. It, it becomes fixated on that instead of all of the other evidence to show, no, this could be fine, this could be great. And so exactly. If you don't do that process, the most important part of it doesn't get to happen.
Jordan: Yeah, and this is, I remember actively doing this with you in the moment and then, and then after, because this is where looking for those learning lessons is important, rather than recognizing it as like, oh, this is just like what happens to me. You know? And, and I, I think you've got some really interesting perspectives on growth first.
Fixed mindset, I think is maybe what you call it, but stuck mindset. and so I want to dive into that, but I remember us talking about this feeling after the fact as I had kind of gotten through all of the, the tough shitty stuff. Having this weird feeling that you were like constantly checking me this like feeling of waiting for the other shoe to drop of like, oh, things are going so well.
I'm kind of worried. You know what I mean? And like that is not a good place to be in. And so that is where like that, that active like coaching and support I think is just unbelievably helpful because it's so easy to, at any one of these like moments, To do the thing that's not gonna keep moving you forward.
Like the things when it's happening in the moment, stopping and pausing to, to reflect and, and be in awe. And then like being able to get fully through it and move on without this expectation of it happening again. Like every one of those points in a million in between is where the support and reminder and like checking and pulling you out and helping you get a little bit high level and looking down on things is so critical.
cuz even like, I mean for, for like specific examples, I, I had some really bad experiences with investments, during, during this time and really started to kind of get into the dumps about like, gosh, can I not trust people? And is like, is there any service out there where people are actually delivering on what they say they're doing?
And like, are, is anybody competent? Like these kinds of questions. And I remember. Getting a little bit too far down that path of almost starting to like, expect that from everyone. But, you definitely can't, you can't do that. That makes it very hard to do business if you expect that from everyone, you know?
So that was like a really specific example that I remember you helping me kind of get out of.
Julia: Yeah. And that's where, something like cognitive behavioral therapy is so helpful in our business because with this idea that our beliefs drive our thoughts and our thoughts drive our actions or the things that we avoid, which cement in the beliefs.
if your belief is nobody's delivering on what they say and you can't really trust anybody with these investments, your thoughts are going to be, what are they doing? Did they do this? Are they trying to scam me? Oh, how is this gonna go? Right? And then our behaviors are. We're on their back, right? We're asking all kinds of questions.
We're starting to maybe not give them all of the resources or things that we would have because we don't trust that they're gonna follow through with it. We might become a bottleneck in the process because now we're trying to hold on way too tight to their process, and then the result is they can't do a good job.
And so what does that do? That feeds our belief that nobody's doing a good job. And so this, is where it becomes so important that we look at the belief and say, okay, how true is that? Right? What are those thoughts giving me for emotions? And am I looking at all of the evidence here?
Am I catastrophizing? Am I overgeneralizing? Am I taking one negative experience and making that now this infallible truth moving forward, once we can kind of start to spot maybe where some cognitive distortions are coming in, right? Or those thought. Broken thought patterns. now we can realize, okay, my brain's not really reading all of this properly.
I've avoided some evidence. And so what are some alternative thoughts that I could have instead? And this isn't to take away the valid experiences that we may have where people do disappoint us because people will, they will disappoint us. Some people oversell themselves, all of it. this doesn't take away from that.
But what it's doing is it's putting them into the proper bucket. So that way now your whole life is not reactionary to the times where people have hurt you or disappointed you, but instead, your, your focus is on how you can be doing the best you can. And you can also let other people do the best that they
Jordan: can too.
Yeah. And I, you've got like a really good resource and I think we've maybe linked it before, in one of our episodes about these cognitive distortions. for any of everyone listening, I, I love to overgeneralize and catastrophize. It's like two of my favorite things to do. So Julia gets me, keeps me on track with that.
and I'm sure there's some, some others that are like common go-tos. I think everyone's kind of got their, their own unique set of, of these distortions that they, they clinging to or regularly like choose your player to. Yeah. so I think you have that right? Mm-hmm. As like something people can grab.
So, we'll, we'll link that in the show notes cuz I think that's a really cool one. let's talk more about this growth versus stock mindset because we've, we've ripped on this, in voice messages before as it relates to things like personality tests. And so let's, let's, let's go there.
Julia: Okay. So yeah, this is, This is the drum I'm choosing to beat right now, right where I've been.
I've been hearing a lot of, people who love personality tests and personality assessments, which is fine. I also love them. I'm a huge fan of the Clifton Strengths Finder. I like that one a lot because the very essence of that one is that strengths are neutral, and so we're just looking to see how you work best.
But this weird thing happens even when people look at their strengths, where they're immediately like penned in by these, by these results from these personality tests. And instead of looking at how this could help them understand themselves better and grow. Now, very often what I see happening is people are stuck.
They're, they're caught in this little box. From an arbitrary test, right? And so they, they'll be saying things like, oh, it's just so hard for me to have these kind of conversations because I'm such a whatever, you know? Or like, well, I'm just not good at that because I'm your typical fill in the blank. And so now of looking at the good side of themselves, they, they zoom in on the things that they view as negative about themselves and keep themselves stuck where they don't wanna be because someone else highlighted this thing that they don't like about themselves.
And while it's valuable to get perspective on like, oh yeah, you know what I am, I am like that. The best use of that would be to look and say, how can I help myself feel more secure in this? Or how can I help myself get what I actually want instead of just being stuck where you are because of the personality that
Jordan: you've developed.
I love this conversation and I have a feeling it's gonna piss some people off, but that's okay. I, I think that what you're hitting on is like the definition of limiting beliefs. Yes. Like, it, it's the definition, it's, it's almost like giving people permission to have limit limiting beliefs, which is really interesting.
and, and I think we all do this to some extent. I'm very aware that like just a few minutes ago I was like, my brain doesn't work that way. Or like, whatever I said about, like, I don't remember things very, and there are like objective truths for sure about, about people's qualities. Like, that is a fact.
I am garbage at remembering facts and history. Like, you wanna play Trivial Pursuit with me? You don't wanna be on my team. I, I promise you I'm garbage at it. Like, there, there's things about people that are true. but I think what you're getting at is like, that doesn't need to. Have control over your success or what you focus on.
I can be garbage at things, but be really fantastic at other things. And as long as I'm focusing on the things that I'm really fantastic at, and I'm hacking who I actually am in order to like move me forward. And that is the focus, the focus is not on, well, this is why I'm here. The focus is on like, well, this is how I'm gonna help me get further because of who I am.
That is what we're talking about. You know, it it's a different approach to using the information. Exactly.
Julia: And that's why I, like I said, I actually like the strengths one if used properly, because now we're looking at, okay, this is your natural lean towards things. So instead of. Forcing yourself to do something that's not your natural lean, which is where we usually end up.
The way that the Clifton strength, now I'm gonna go off is supposed to work, right? Because a lot of people have done their strengths, but the idea is that numbers one through five are kind of just inherently who you are. It might be the strengths about yourself that you've kind of noticed, but you haven't noticed as much.
Number six through 10 are the strengths that most people expected to be their top five. Those are the ones that are a little bit more obvious to you. And the bottom five strengths. So if you do your full, 34, 34, 35, I think it's 34. If you do the full run, your bottom five are the ones that you just don't really understand how people approach things in that space.
And very often what people do is they, They're trying to operate their whole life in that bottom five because they're seeing other people in that, in those strengths, and they're like, oh, maybe that's what I'm supposed to be like. Right. We're, we're operating more in the, in the weakness zone than in the strengths and all of the strengths are neutral.
It doesn't make you a better person or anything to have a specific top five. Your, your combo is also, there's like a one in 33 billion chance that anybody else has the exact combo as you, and so it's also helping you realize like you are literally the only person on the planet that is like you, that's what that's helping people realize.
What I often see people do is then, because if they see a weakness or again, onto some of the other, like Enneagram or DISC or stuff like that, they, they just focus on the weaknesses or they're like, well, I'm not, I'm not that way. I don't stand up for myself so. Here we are. But in reality, the healthy thing would be to realize I have a hard time standing up for myself.
Why is that? What are, what are the signals that I've gotten through life that standing up for myself isn't okay? And how would I help myself to do that in a way that feels safe, that I still honor who I am and my core values, but that I don't walk around with this belief that people are just out to push me down?
Because that's the thing, right, is that we're kind of acknowledging to ourselves, I get into a lot of situations that I'm kind of treated like a doormat. And that's, that's not gonna help you feel excited about approaching any new opportunities. And so this is why it's so important to come at it with that understanding of like, okay, sure.
Why is that the case? What's going on there? How could I help myself to move past this? Or if we're really, You know, we're prone to making decisions without getting all the information, and we're really impulsive. We're not just gonna be like, well, that's who I am, BAA bing, ba boom, here goes life. Right?
We're gonna look and say, well, what's going on here? What am I, what needs am I hoping to do? How could I help myself to connect with more resources or information so that way I'm not in this spot all the time. It go, it goes both ways where we might be learning how to reign some things in, but also learning how to turn some things up.
But none of us were born
Jordan: stagnant. Yeah. Well, and, and this, this makes me wanna go down one rabbit hole a around c e o quirks, because we've talked about this and I feel like this is really connected to this, because I think this is where a lot of these unique strengths or, or, weaknesses can. Can be planned for or, or maneuvered around in a really productive way.
And, and I, this is how I, I love, I love personality tests. I, I love them. I love taking this information and then turning it into something like actionable and like looking at, at it as, oh, I'm gonna be able to like, hack things based on this information. And that has consistently shown up for me as like a really productive way to do things.
So, for instance, human design. I love human design. I'm a manifesting generator. my number one strategy is to respond. That's why I love doing these types of podcasts. And I love having audio conversations with people because I find that the, the best of me comes out in conversation versus in a vacuum.
Right. And so it's why I don't like doing courses or structured presentations and trainings. I don't like doing that. I like doing workshop style, discussion-based things because I find that I operate better in, in those types of environments, and people get better information from me in those types of environments.
And that means that's something I can, I can optimize for. It doesn't mean I'm never gonna do any kind of like presentation. I'm gonna probably avoid them because I generally just don't like them. But it, it, it's something you can optimize for, not something to use as an excuse, right? So like, it's the approach, and the other thing is, you know, there are things to optimize for and things that you can like, like the example I'm giving here is something that I kind of avoid because I don't like doing it. And, and I have, I've been validated that, that that's okay for me to avoid that based on the results of my, my test.
I think the other side of that, that's equally as important is some of these results present information to you that actually is more an invitation to, to grow and stretch. And, and so yes, leaning into things that, that you can optimize for because you're validated for why you're like that. But also looking for, like equally looking for opportunities to actually change and adjust and grow and stretch who you are not to stay stuck exactly where you are.
So a perfect example of this is, um, For me in my human design chart, staying with that, that theme, a th like what has come up or what I have been told comes up in my chart is that I need to learn the lesson of patience. And it comes up multiple times and Yeah, totally. I'm super impatient. I am a super impatient person for sure.
And that doesn't mean that I'm gonna be like, well, I'm an impatient person, so like I'm just gonna always be impatient. It means I'm actually framing it as how can I practice more patience? And it's deeply uncomfortable for me, but I'm still gonna do it. So like I'm sitting on an offer right now that I'm actively working on, that I have been sitting on for like, An unbelievably long amount of time For me, it's not, it's like a couple of weeks, right?
Like that's not that long for someone to sit on an offer. But for me, it's deeply uncomfortable. But I'm trying to like lean into that and practice patience because this is, feels like a really great opportunity for me to do that. and to get better at that side of who I want to be, right? So I just, it it feels like it has to be, you have to do both.
Julia: Yeah. And that goes for everything in life, right? That, that's where we're really at our best is understanding ourselves, accepting ourselves, and then figuring out how to optimize life. And back to that topic of CEO quirks, that's where, that's a concept we've kind of worked on together, right? Where it's this idea of.
You know, when you think about certain CEOs like Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerberg, like everybody knows they wear the same thing every day. And that was something that they settled on because it took out this decision from their day of like, oh, you know, what are we gonna wear? Because we, we really only have so much decision power in a day.
And so if you u and we use up most of it in the morning, which leaves us feeling pretty drag out at the end of the day. So that was kind of like this known CEO quirk. And so I had asked you, what are some of your c e o quirks or things that you would like to incorporate more in your life? That, it's just an automatic right of like, this is what I do, this is, this is how things go.
And maybe it's a little different than how other people would do stuff, but it's what works for me and so this is what I'm gonna do. And using something like a personality test could be a good way to get some. Clues as to what that might look like for you. And they don't have to make sense to anybody else but you.
It's really a fun exercise to see like, yeah, what's, because you know, most CEOs and people who are highly successful at things are quite honestly, quite quirky. So we, you know, the earlier we embrace that about ourselves because that's just this true embracement of who you are and how you operate best, the better.
And so that doesn't look like, well I'm never gonna be able to do that because I'm such a type eight or whatever. We're looking at, okay, here's your skills that you've got, so how are you gonna optimize that so that way you can move in the direction that you wanna go because you can do anything.
Jordan: Yeah.
Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I, I love this conversation about the CEO quirks and I would really like, I would like to, to more deeply contemplate and pinpoint mine. but some that come to, come to mind are, The extent to which I use audio messages is probably outta control compared to like most people. but that's important for me.
And, and, and not only because I like to respond, so I like to be in response to people. So being more in conversation is helpful for me. But also hearing myself, I'm like a, an audio processor, like a verbal processor. So that's very helpful for me. Like I get a lot of content, ideas from talking out conversations with people.
So that's a hack, that's a quirk for me. and anyone who's, any of my clients, my friends, my, my peers, anyone knows that I almost exclusively send audio messages. Right. and that works for me. The, the a flip side to that, or like a related quirk of mine, I think is. I, I keep, and I, I had a, I just did a solo podcast not that long ago about this.
I keep a really tight rain on my calendar, and I've got a limit to how many calls I can do in a day. And it's about three where I'm like comfortable. And part of the reason for that is because the entire rest of the day I'm talking. So I, I can't have, I can't have a day, like a, like a 5, 6, 7 hour day of calls because I'm also talking in my other messages.
And so, you know, my husband thinks I'm crazy. He's like, all you do is sit in your office and like, talk nonstop. And I do, and I'm exhausted at the end of the day, you know? So I have to like be very careful about the amount of calls that I put on my calendar, because it just, it adds, it adds the amount of like energy output that I'm gonna have to do in a day.
I'm trying to think what other ones I have. I don't know. I
Julia: bet there's a bunch because then you can also start, that's pretty weird. No, it's all of us. You know, you can start thinking about, just different things that help you feel like your day goes well or things that, you know, the day can't function.
So, one that I've been noticing a lot in myself is that, if I make my bed in the morning, I can do everything, everything, everything happens after that. Like, cuz then I move to the next thing and then to the next. And it's just like this flow. If I don't make my bed. It's, it's off. It's not gonna happen because my brain needs that as the starter of the day.
And there will be times where I actually have this little argument with myself where I'm like, just go make the bed. And then I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm, I don't feel like it. I don't wanna, because I know if I go make the bed, then it's almost like this unstoppable force of how I'm gonna go forward with the day.
And I like, almost don't even wanna acknowledge it, but then I will put it off and I'm like, oh, this day just feels so off. I feel like I can't, cuz I didn't do the thing that I know helps my brain be like, let's start the day. And so I've really just adopted that as like a life quirk for myself of like, you know, this thing makes all the difference.
And is it a big deal? Actually, no. But my brain's clicked with it and so now I'm just gonna embrace it and I will be a person who apparently. Has her, her bed made and you'll, you'll know how my day is going based off of that factor.
Jordan: Yeah, that's, that is so not me. I, I don't ever make my bed. I never did. My bed never gets made.
I never used to, and, and actually I feel like my CEO clerk as the opposite of that. It's like, well, why would I spend time doing that? I know when I'm just gonna undo it. That's
Julia: how I used, I used to feel, that's how I used to feel and it doesn't bother me. And then at some point, well cuz the other thing is like, I hate when I get in bed and then like the blankets aren't like normal, you know?
Oh gosh. Yeah. I know for sure. That's for me, like, okay, I'm really gonna appreciate this later. Cuz if poor James, he'll be comfortable in bed. And then if I didn't make the bed and then the blankets are like, like one blanket's further over this way and the other, I'm like, we have, we have to fix this. So sorry, shame, but we're g you're, we're all both gonna get up and we're gonna, we're gonna fix this.
So making the bed makes life better. Later. I was never, I didn't grow up with that. It wasn't like a big, a big deal. But now at some point it became a
Jordan: big deal. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting. I'm aware that another one of mine is definitely the fact that I don't follow anyone on Instagram slash I essentially don't consume any content whatsoever.
Yep. Across any kind of platform. I think that's a really important one for me specifically. And, and I mean, I don't know, I don't know what part of my, of any of my personality tests or assessments that, that stems from or touches on, but I can tell you that I have like, I don't know. I feel like I'm kind of like emotionally sensitive in my.
I like to keep, I like to stay in like a really upbeat space, but I can get dragged down really easily, like emotionally and energetically. And so like, things like the news don't work for me, I can't do it. I don't even like seeing any posts on, on social media about people doing well or about like, people complaining because both can drag me down because one, one stimulates like, like comparisonitis or like fomo, you know, of like, oh, well they're doing that, so maybe I should do, like, that kind of shit is absolute mind garbage for me.
so I avoided at all costs. And then also seeing people like complaining or seeing people doing not well, like that drags me down too. I think. that feels like an energy protection. Mm-hmm. Mechanism. Mechanism. To
Julia: me, I wish, and this would go in the complete opposite direction of the purpose of social media, I wish.
People consumed less from their competitors or people in their field because that is the number one drive of the comparison game. But also it kills creativity because I've seen it so many times with clients where like they have an idea, they could act on that idea, but then they see someone else had a similar idea and then they're like, well, now I can't do it.
And that's not true. And that's one of the reasons why I also don't consume, I, I don't consume content from. Other people in my industry because I don't wanna know what other people are up to. I just wanna be doing my own thing. I follow my clients. I, I love to see what my clients are up to and then that way we can talk about it, right?
But otherwise, I'm really not consuming to see like, oh, what kind of offers are people building? Because then it just builds this drive of like, should I be doing something like that? Should I have this figured out? Or they're doing so much better than me, why aren't I doing so well? Right. We can really quickly play that game and it's not helpful.
All it's doing is driving this feeling of like, you are not doing enough and now you also can't do it because somebody else did it. And that goes right back to what we were talking about at the beginning of like, instead you could just be doing your thing. We weren't operating businesses like this before.
We don't need to operate them like this now. Like yeah, network, whatever, but we don't need to be so in everybody else's business all the time. With social media, the way it sets it up, we're like, we okay. Oh, that person launched that. Should I launch something now? I can't launch what I want. I always tell my clients, yeah, go walk down the cereal aisle and look at how many off brands there are of Cheerios, and then you come back and tell me why you can't run that program, that somebody else may loosely do something similar
Jordan: to you.
Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I love that you said that it kills creativity because I agree. I, I I don't like to know what people are up to. I have no desire. I, I think it pollutes my brain and, and makes things like confusing and like for many reasons I do not care and I do not want to, I do not wanna know what anybody else is doing.
No desire. And I think that is really important because it, it just gets in your head and you like second guess any everything that you're doing. what what's interesting is there is, a caveat to that in that I'm obviously exposed to like a lot of people's businesses because I have quite a few clients and I like to, to know what people are doing.
And I kind of feel like part of what my job is for my clients is to be a little bit of like a clearinghouse of ideas and strategies. And so on that front, it is sometimes good to like see what new people are. Well, like get exposed to new strategies, but I'm very particular about how I get those strategies into my brain, right?
So, so there, there is a caveat there, but I'm not just like mindlessly consuming people's content or scrolling Instagram or, you know, subscribe to a bunch of newsletters where I'm like, you know, no, absolutely not. another equally important part of this, because I know this about myself, is I don't like to see what people are up to in my industry because I sometimes.
And this is like super egotistical, but I don't care. It's like true. for me, it feels true. I sometimes see people doing things that I feel like I did first, and then I get annoyed with that. Right? And, and I think this probably stems from the fact that early on in this business, you know, this story, and I don't think I've shared this on the podcast, someone genuinely ripped off my entire business and, stole my service guide, stole my sales page, stole every single page on my website, and made it their own, and created a business and still runs a business with a very similar name.
And I'm not gonna call them out because I think that's inappropriate. but what they're doing, even still to this day, I think is deeply unethical. And, and, and the stuff that they were doing was illegal and I had to call them out on that, because it was word for word my entire business. , and still what they're trying to sell is identical to my business structure.
And so, That I think was like an early business trauma. We've talked about business trauma to where then that's part of also why I don't like to, to consume information, because I don't wanna think that anyone has ripped me off because again, it's like an, it's an energy drain and, and I almost would rather, like, I don't care if people are doing it as long as I don't know that they're doing it.
You know what I mean? Because I just don't have time and energy and, and space to, to deal with
Julia: it. Yeah. And there also will come a point where it's like, you know, how much are you gonna chase that down, right? You are you just gonna know about it and ruin your own day and get mad about it?
Or are you gonna feel compelled to do something about it? And then if that's the case now, I mean, you have to bring on a whole new staff member just to scour the internet and keywords and make sure, you know, it's, it's a very, it's a very, in the weeds kind of a view, right? Where instead if you're just focused on what you're doing, Whatever your people are gonna find your people, and that's okay.
That's really okay. We won't be able to snag every single person who could potentially be our client ever. Right. And so it's just kind of coming to peace with the fact that we have to build our business and Yeah. You watch out for like totally unethical, illegal behavior and you don't have to be a doormat, but then also deciding, you know, what's gonna take away your
Jordan: peace.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that was the conclusion we came to, which is like, at some point I'm just gonna have to let this go. Yeah. And move on and trust that, trust that integrity is ultimately rewarded. Mm-hmm. And karma is real. And, you know, I'm just gonna let that take care of itself and I'm gonna use my very limited bandwidth, of time and energy to, to focus on my own thing.
So, all right. What else? That was, we've touched on a lot of, we did. Fun stuff. Yeah. That was all the stuff I had on my list. Yeah. Yeah. All right. We did have an agenda. Yeah, we did. That was great. Anything else you wanna leave us with on any of these topics?
Julia: No, I think, I would really love for people to like, talk about ways that they're finding awe in their business.
and then earlier I had mentioned that kind of three step process to the worst case scenario. And if you're gonna do anything from this, podcast, please actively help yourself do that, because I've seen that change so many people's thought processes and, feel so much calmer. We're so afraid to voice the things we're afraid of, but if we can just do that, usually stuff starts to click in place.
And so, for a happier, healthier business world out there, I would really love for anyone who listens to this to start looking for ways they can actively implement that in their
Jordan: life. Will, will you give us the rundown again? Yeah. Of
Julia: the three steps? So the first thing is, what is the worst possible case scenario that I'm afraid of happening here?
What are three things that would need to happen in order for that to come true? What are some actions I would take when I see those three things starting to happen or happening? And then I guess it's four steps. Cuz then at the end you look and say, okay, so how likely do I feel like those things are to happen?
And if you can walk yourself through that process, lots of things start to shift.
Jordan: Yeah. I love this. And we've talked about this I think on some other episodes mm-hmm. About how I've, how I have used that process. And I don't know if I've used it in that exact facilitated way, but you know, I love to run worst case scenarios.
And it, yes. For me, worst case scenarios are typically tied to money related to my business. And so running models like full, like I, I'm talking about, I'm in a spreadsheet. Putting in information and running different scenarios on, okay, if this happened and if that happened, , what's the absolute worst case scenario of what this would look like?
And then what would be my reaction to that? Mm-hmm. And then realizing, okay, well the worst case scenario sucks, but it's really not that bad, nor is it very likely to happen. So that's almost always like, spoiler alert, that's almost always like the, the conclusion you get to at the end. Yeah.
Julia: but you gotta do the process.
You can't just jump, jump to the like, eh, that's probably not gonna happen. Yeah. No. You have to do the middle stuff or else your brain will be like, but what if it does? And then Totally. You're just off.
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, everyone who knows that I'm, I'm almost unhealthily obsessed with Tim Ferris. You can Google Tim Ferris in Fear setting and he's got some cool information around that too.
Yeah, this was great. It was, I'm glad we, well, we, we circled around back to awe to like, make it a little bit more positive. And then we got back, back down to worst case scenarios to
Julia: end on. Not so positive, but it's still a positive. So
Jordan: it, it is, you're, you're, you're gonna make it. You got this. there we go.
Well in there.