For the full show notes and access to resources mentioned in this episode visit https://www.easyscaling.com/blog/episode37
This episode is part of our mini-series all about money. Tune in as we get deep in the weeds about how much we're making, how much we're spending, and how that's evolved since we started. I'm very appreciative of all of my guests who were brave enough to show up on this series and talk transparently about all things money.
In this episode, we’re talking with Kim Argetsinger, a mindset coach and business mentor with a mission to help you create your version of success and make more money doing what you love. Kim’s been around the business and coaching block for almost seven years, has been on thousands and thousands of coaching calls, and has built her own booked out, multi-six-figure business and team her way that brings in consistent multi-5-figure cash months from 1:1 alone.
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36# Money | XYZ with Kim Argetsinger
Jordan: Hello. Hello. Welcome to our mini-series, all About Money. We are getting deep in the weeds about actual figures, context, full transparency on how much we're making, how much we're spending, how that's evolved since we started. And when I say we, I mean myself and all of my guests who are joining me for this series.
I'm very appreciative of everyone who. Who was brave enough to show up on this series and talk? Transparently about their revenue, their expenses, how much they're paying themselves, all of the things. I think this is really important and I hope that it makes at least some type of teeny tiny dent on our industry to get us closer to sharing openly about this and being honest and giving the full context of how we've done what we've done.
What our business actually looks like on the financial side so that we can set real realistic expectations for other people in the online space. So I hope that you really enjoy this series.
Alrighty, in this episode we're chatting with Kim Argetsinger. She is a mindset coach and business mentor with a mission to help you create your version of success and make more money doing what you love.
We're all about. Kim has been around the business and coaching block for almost seven years. She's been on thousands and thousands of coaching calls and she's built her own, booked out multi six figure business and team her way that brings in consistent multi five-figure cash months from one-on-one coaching alone.
I think Kim has got a super cool business. I love that. It's so simple. She has definitely put in the time she's put in the work and she's really figured out what works for her and she has got a cool vibe, a cool perspective, and I love how openly transparent she is about all things money and her thoughts around this mindset piece, which I find to be particularly helpful. So I hope you enjoy this conversation.
Welcome. Welcome everyone, and welcome Kim to the podcast. I'm excited to have you
Kim: here. I'm so happy to be here. I can't wait to dig into all the
Jordan: good stuff. Yeah, this is gonna be fun. Money is juicy, and as I've been saying to pretty much everyone who's come on for the series, like thank you.
Thank you for being willing to come on here and talk about your numbers openly and honestly, and transparently. It's awesome.
Kim: I feel like it's the reverse you. Thank you for having the platform. I love money. I love talking about money. It's one of my favorite things. So,
Jordan: yeah. You know. Thank you.
It's great. So, , maybe let's set the stage first, how long you've been in business, kind of where you're at in terms of revenue, things like that, so that we can just, you know, get a good picture of the type of business you run, how long you've been around, those types of things, and then we will see where it goes.
Kim: Absolutely. So as of this March, 2023, I'll have been in business for seven years. I run a only one-on-one coaching practice. It's fully booked and we last year generated 330,000 in revenue. The year before was about 365, so we actually had a slight dip, which I am thrilled about for. We don't necessarily have to get in that today, but it was a pretty intentional dip.
And I use a profit sharing of revenue share model as the way I scale one-on-one. I don't offer anything else. And we have a really great profit margin we could, we can potentially talk about because we don't run ads. I've never spent. Dime on ads and we have a pretty low overhead. So that's kind of the, the really short summary and I'll let you ask me whatever feels Yeah, good to hear more
Okay. This is cool and I, this is partly why I think this series is so important. One, just to like openly talk about money and to talk about specific numbers and not make it this like weird, like mysterious thing that we don't understand, and that we don't know if what we're doing is right or normal.
I think that's kind of like a big thing when it comes to money in this space. Because we only see huge numbers all the time. We don't know what an actual business looks like, . So that's part of the purpose of this. The other thing that I think is really cool about this series is that everyone has such different models, business models, they're like amount of expenses the way that they do legion.
Like we have a heavy a strategy. Everyone listening knows that. but you don't do a dime on ads. So I think that's super cool to talk about. to talk about how you actually do find your clients. But what I wanna start with first is the trajectory of your income because you've been in business for seven years, so like that's a really, that's a long time in, in the business world, I feel like, especially the online business world.
That's a long time, which is awesome. So talk to me about, , the just progression of your revenue over those seven years. Absolutely,
Kim: and I, I just feel, it feels important for me to say one thing about the, the ad spend piece, and I feel like you're touching on this because there are so many different models.
I always wanna say one way is not better than the other. I think sometimes we also glorify like profit margin and it, it just looks so different. I just happen not to, which means I make and take home about the. many million dollar businesses, but that's not wrong if you have a million dollar business with, you know, a large, large ad spend.
It just feels important. So there's that context there. but the trajectory for my business, so we Are you kind of talking about like, when do we hit first like six figures
Jordan: and kind of Yeah. Like how long it took you to grow and like, are you kind of at a stable level now? Do you plan to continue to grow?
Like what does that all look like?
Kim: Yeah. . So I was honestly pretty horrible at tracking my revenue the first couple of years. We were somewhere under the six figures. I, I would not feel comfortable sharing what that is, but I would even bet my first year was probably around $20,000 to be. I, I think that's probably where it was when, and I always say to clients, getting to your first six figures, I think is the most challenging gap to close.
getting clear on new model and for strategy reasons, but also I think I do a lot of mindset work with clients. For me, I know it was just such a mindset game to get to that place, and once you make six figures, I find it so much easier. So annoying to hear, but it's so much easier to grow from there. So I had my first six figure year, and then the next year we had, so it was about 1 25 K, and then the next year jumped to about 2 25.
So we added on a hundred. And then the year after that, was 365, so that was last year, and then three 30 this year. So it kind of added on about a hundred k or a little bit more every year, which is cool from one-on-one. We are now at a place, revenue wise, where it's actually a really fun place to be.
We're very kind of stable. I can project that if nothing changes, we will bring in between, let's say three 30 to 3 75, 3 85 this year. That's sort of just. . We don't push, if we don't open up any spots, if like nothing comes through from revenue share, it's just sort of like that is kind of set. I can just coast on that for not coast, but like ride that in business sustainably.
Yeah, and that feels really important to me because I do have a revenue share model, which is I, I get paid a base rate by my clients and then receive 10% of the new revenue they generate while working with me. And it's really important to me that I'm clean around that income and neutral and that I'm.
Hoping my clients make me money or like pressuring them to go down certain paths so I can make more money. So it feels important to me to know I can make this if I never make more beautiful. And we definitely have the potential to scale to a million or more through the revenue share with one-on-one.
So that's kind of that answers, that's kind of the, yeah, past trajectory and where I see the future.
Jordan: I love that. I love that. And I think maybe we'll touch on this revenue share thing a little bit, because I do think. , probably not everyone listening has even heard of something like that. So it might be interesting to just talk about it a a little bit, but, for this year, because you have, it sounds like, kind of leveled out and you know, like, okay, this is like, like you said, you don't wanna say coast necessarily, but kind of like this is like, okay, if we didn't really.
Try that hard. , we can expect this. Yes. Easy to sustain. Easy to sustain. Where you're at right now, do you have set revenue goals for 2023 or for the next couple of years, or you just kind of leave that a little bit flexible?
Kim: Yes, and so my. Goal is to build a million dollar one-on-one practice. That is my goal.
I just have zero pressure on the timeline. Yeah, and what's really my goal, I say this to clients so often, it's not just about the money you make, it's how you make your money and what you do with it that matters. I care so much more about how I make my money and meaning the model I run, but also how I feel making that money.
I am not willing to make a lot of trade offs. other people might be willing to make, but I know there's certain things I just have, I'm not willing to do on social media. There's certain things I'm not willing to do to burn myself out. So I have a long-term goal, but it's sort of, if it happens this year, I think I fully believe that's possible.
I'm also cool with that, taking five years. So that's sort of the big goal. And then my, my goal, I tend to set a lot of, more process goals in my business. So I know my revenue comes from serving clients well. So a lot of the goals we have are. Client delivery, which is also tied to the revenue goal. And so I sort of like have both where I want us to make three 50 no matter what.
This year it would be beautiful to add on a hundred K more through revenue share with the ultimate goal of a
Jordan: million. . Yeah. Okay. That's great. If that makes sense. No, yeah, that's, that's super helpful. And, so on this revenue sh revenue share piece, because I think it's interesting that you mentioned like not putting too much pressure on it and, not like forcing your clients or pushing them or doing anything like that.
But what I also think is really cool about that model is that you're like deeply invested in your clients, you know, in their, in their success, which I think is a really cool aspect of that revenue share. , I know a couple of other people who do that and, and that seems to be kind of like the biggest, at least from the client side, I would imagine that's like one of the biggest perks.
Kim: I, so I cannot take credit for innovation around this model. It comes from my coach Lacey sites. I've worked with her for four and a half years, so that's, I experience it on both sides, both paying her and how I receive money. And I acted for a decade and then worked in advertising before starting my business.
And both of those businesses run. Basically a version of a revenue share model. Yeah. So to me it just makes logical business sense for exactly the reason you're saying. . I have skin in the game. My clients have skin in the game. Obviously they need to have more skin in the game than me. 90% I think makes sense, but it just feels really good in that way where I like to be really invested in my clients anyway, and this way we both win together.
But that way the, the thing I think people don't always understand with revenue share that I also really love on both sides of it is it also means if they're at the start of business and they're not making as much revenue, they're not paying the same amount. Someone who's making a million dollars in revenue.
Is, or if they just had a launch and then they're not making revenue for a couple months, they're not having to continue to pay those high monthly rates or if they have a dip because life, because something's going on, their, their fees for coaching really get to match where, where they're at as well. And that feels, feels really good to
Yeah. That's super cool. One thing that I love about this podcast is I get to talk about, Things that I would never would've even thought to talk about it. Now you've got me Thrilly thinking about this revenue share model, , so I'll have to pick your brain about it later. But, on, on the, going back to kind of like the trajectory piece, where you started, where you're at now.
Has your business model changed at all? Have your expenses changed drastically at all? I know I've been. Our, our, our business is like fairly new year and a half old, and we've scaled very, very, we've grown very, very fast and part of how we've grown is like aggressively investing and building very, very quickly, and then now kind of leveling off and scaling back on the expenses because we've, we've got a good foundation in place.
So I'm curious if you saw anything like that or if it's just kind of more been slow. Sustained. .
Kim: Yeah. Such a good question. I have lots of thoughts on that. So has my model changed? No. I've had a one-on-one model the whole time, however, I gave myself permission to basically test every model. I am an entrepreneur at heart.
I'm so curious. So the reason I'm so locked in on this model and know this is like my thing and what I am doing and why I can feel so confident and not feel like I have like shiny object syndrome, is I let myself test pretty much. Everything else. So I've, I wouldn't say those were my models, but I've had those opportunities over seven years.
You've got plenty of time to, to test things, so yes. And, and then in terms of, expenses, how I've seen them change? Yeah. So I would say, I, I, for myself, and I think for most people, what you find at the start of business is it tends to be really lopsided in where you're investing heavily and you're not really paying yourself that much.
I mean, if we look outside of our business space or like our online, That's why people have go out and raise capital, right? Like it takes money to make money, it just kind of does in business. So I was definitely more lopsided, like super heavily invested at the start, mostly just with coaching. and that's always been a big investment.
And then before I made six figures, I was building my team, especially being on one-on-one calls. That was important and. , when we grew from six figures to like about the 200 K mark, that's when I expanded my team. And so I would say that's where my expenses probably increased. The most. And then what I have found is as you make more money, and I think what you're exp experiencing as well, and the more money I make, we don't have a lot more, like there's not a lot more for us to invest in because of my model.
So they tend to, the expenses stay very stable. It's not that we're necessarily letting go of anything but. It's just remained stable. And as we make more income, that just helps the profit
Jordan: margin. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So talk to us about some specific numbers on this side of things. Like what is a typical month or year look like?
in terms of expenses for you and what are some of those big key spends that you make?
Kim: Yeah. Oh, I will say, the one expense for me that does go up is coaching because I pay my coach through a revenue share as well. Right. So obviously the more money I make, the more, the more I pay her. But that feels, that feels really good to me cuz we're in partnership together.
okay, so numbers for expenses, I think I, when we were chatting before, I said it's really important for me to be very clear in integrity. I know overall we, we spent about a hundred thousand last year on expenses, but I am completely legal. I follow all of the legal tax things. I run a lot of things through my business that aren't technically, that are technically legal, but not what we're talking about with expenses.
Kim: So I can break down, some team expenses a little bit more, but just for context for everyone, if you're hearing that number and you're like, oh my gosh, that's so much. Some of these. things like joining a social club where I have host VIPs that aren't really an ongoing expense. The, largest expense for me there is my coach.
So that ebbs and flows, but I pay her a flat rate of a thousand a month and then I pay her a percentage of my, my revenue and then the, the majority of our other expenses. Well, PayPal is what, 3.2%. Oh my gosh. Yeah. and it sounds so like, just to normalize, cause I know people get like really spun out about that.
That's a very, I. Investment in my business because that's how I get paid regularly. So I'm not mad at that at all. But 3.2 or whatever percent of once you're getting into multi six figures is a substantial amount. And then the majority, so I think it's about, and I don't know the exact numbers on this, so everyone listening take this like very loosely, but I think our team monthly spend is between three and 4,000 a month.
And then we'll have extraneous things like if I need to pay. You know, my cpa or if we're doing rebranding or something like,
Jordan: Nice. Who do you have on your team? So I have five
Kim: people on my team. I have an obm. She's probably the biggest expense, and I, I need her and I love her and I appreciate her. She's listening to this.
I have two VAs who are specialized. We have them in different, like different areas I should say. I love all of my team. I could not run my business and have a one-on-one business without them. So that feels important to say. I have a podcast editor. I have a podcast as well, and then I have a copywriter. I write the majority of my own content.
I am one of the few weirdos. really likes to do that, but my copywriter writes the description for our podcast and pulls out like a repurposed piece of content
Jordan: from that every week. That's awesome. That's awesome. Definitely dialed in. It sounds like, I'm sure it took some time to get to that exact structure,
Kim: yes. That's seven. I mean, I, I love team dynamics and supporting clients with that because I think there's such like, there's the practical and the process strategy and all that, but I think there's such a, your own clarity as the leader. That's so important. And then the communication piece of that.
I still to this day, I had a conversation with Airbnb yesterday. I was like, so this is on me because I forgot, yeah, that what lives in my brain does not live in everyone else's brain, and I did not communicate this well. So no, I've not mad at anyone, but like I take full ownership for this mistake that just happened.
Jordan: love team. It's pretty dialed in. I think it's really fun to have a. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. .
Kim: I also love my team. I, I, I, I think we spent all of last year, that was one of my biggest goals was not revenue, but was to really tighten up the back end of my. , like our systems are processes, but also team, and I'm really proud of the team we built.
I overbooked myself the year before, so I, I spent all of last year really working on capacity and team. Mm-hmm. and I'm mm-hmm. . I'm proud of our team. We got, we got a, we got a good group.
Jordan: That's awesome. That's a, that is a big thing. I feel like that unlocks a lot in terms of the operations of your business, how you feel, the profitability, all of the things such an important piece.
I mean, obviously that's kind of like, A big thing that I do on the Daily, but yeah, no, it's,
Kim: I, I'm made a mastermind and I remember people talking about like how great things felt with their team, and I was like, what are you talking about? Like, my team was not bad. I mean, I've always loved the people on my team, but just because we've put so much focus on that last year and I just feel supported in a different way, it, it really does make.
such a direct difference to everything you're doing day to day, for sure. Sure. Anyway, I'll take us on a rabbit hole. I know you've got, you've got other money questions, ,
Jordan: you can come back for the miniseries. We do all about building a team. That would be fun. all right, let's see. What else do you think we should talk about, about on the money side of things?
I mean, can be general big picture money, transparency or deepen the weeds specific with, your business.
Kim: Yeah. The, the thought that comes up for me, that's really big. big on my heart to be transparent and to share around is normalizing that income isn't a straight line and that businesses we, we generated a million in the past four years and 700 K two in the past two years, and last year I didn't add on a hundred k i.
We actually brought in about 35 K less revenue. And I think there's something really important to speak to in that because. . I'm not hating. I'm here for a million dollars in a minute, but I think sometimes we get the message in our space that it is always up and up and you're doing something wrong or there's something wrong with your business if it's not always making more year after year.
And I think that can be very damaging. And frankly, I, I work with many business owners who are making far more than me, and I've just seen the behinds of scenes of so many businesses that's just. How business works over like decade after decade. So I'm happy to share more around that, but that feels, that feels very important.
Jordan: Yeah. And we've been talking a lot about that on these episodes and ones coming out, later this month because I agree, I think a lot of the messaging in this space around money is damaging and like, at the very least, it's confusing and, and I think it creates this just really weird situ. , like I said at the beginning where people just don't know if what they're doing is normal.
And most people listening know a lot about my numbers. I share about them regularly and transparently and we, I mean, 2022 was our first full year in business than we did over 320 k. And so that's like not a normal trajectory whatsoever and is actually quite impressive. But at the same time, I had so many moments last year where I was.
We are like failing, like why haven't we done X, Y, Z yet? And I should be paying myself more and I should be in this and this and this. And like just feeling absolutely terrible about myself and then realizing, wait a minute, like what am I even comparing myself to? Is that even a thing that's real or is that a total fluke that has been marketed to me as the standard and is actually causing more harm than good
Kim: it's exactly that. . I, I, I both love that we in our space, talk about money and share big numbers. I think it, it's one of the things I actually appreciate. Cause I think talking about money is important and I think there's so much damage when we, like, feel shameful about talking about money or don't have those money conversations.
And also we get such s slivers of a perspective or understanding. what we're hearing behind numbers and to what you're saying, I think it just becomes so easy to be doing really well and to make yourself wrong. I remember, so l November of last year is when we made a million dollars revenue in four years.
So, but for a one-on-one coaching model with very low over. head in terms of like the actual things we're paying for in Team . like that's a really big deal and it was something I was proud of and it was just fascinating to watch my brain. There was a good week where I was like, I shouldn't even talk about this because it's like, it's a million dollars in four years, not in a year.
And like it was just wild to watch myself. And what's so funny is my goal starting this business was to make $60,000 a year. And then I quickly learned when you make money in business, it's not all yours. And I live in New York City, so I needed to make a little bit more . Yeah. But. At 350 K a year, which is about what we're making.
I'm, I don't, I don't actually need any more money. Like making more money would not change a thing in my life outside of what I invest. And it was just really fascinating to watch, watch that noise and just have to essentially do my own coaching and go to my own coach to unwind that and to kind of un like shed that, to get back to, to groundedness.
So, very much to what you're saying it is, to normalize. I think this, this shit comes up for everyone.
Jordan: It does. It's so interest. , speaking of paying yourself, I would love to know how much you're paying yourself and how that has changed over the years and how you approach that.
Is it monthly? Are you salaried? Is that like, I've been considering paying myself quarterly this year just so that I can not have the stress of like having to figure out what makes sense as a monthly salary as we're still kind of in growth mode and trying to figure out what is consistent.
So what's your approach been on that?
Kim: Yeah. I think, yeah, there's no right or wrong way. It's like different for everyone. I really, I I, my income is very reoccurring, so I, I, I have. clients are with me long term and even who've been, been with me for years and years. The revenue share, I can't predict that.
I can predict my baseline pretty well, so I know what's coming in, and at this point in business, we have many, many months of reserve for kind of any e ebb and flow. So for me, it feels really good to pay myself monthly. I, I dislike getting that consistent payment. I pay myself twice a month. I pay myself 13 K for the month, but I invest really heavily.
So I take, I actually see in. Like what I spend usually between eight and nine, nine k. I like to, to put the rest of the money elsewhere. When you
Jordan: say invest heavily, you mean in like personal investments? Yes,
Kim: yes, yes. Like in, I'm an S-corp so I can have a solo 401k and it's a whole nother conversation.
But for those of you listening, it's really smart to look at, you know, where you can leverage your money and get those extra tax benefits. So, Do that. And then I, I like to, you know, crypto and we have some real, like, there's just other fun things I like to do with my money. Yeah. Cool,
Jordan: cool. And then when did you, when did, how long did it take you to kind of get to that steady level of income?
Kim: you mean? I'm, I'm just trying to think of, do you mean like study, like paying myself that
Jordan: or, yeah, because it sounds like that's kind of like a consistent thing that you pay yourself now every month. Yeah. Did it take you a while to get to that point? I would say the
Kim: last two years because our income's been.
pretty much consistent the last two, two years. I've always paid myself that way. It's just been based on what my base rate income is and just kind of what I'm expecting the business to make. Yeah, over the year, so I paid, probably paid myself guessing eight k a month when I was making, like, I've just paid myself less, but kind of the same way.
I paid myself on the 15th and on the, last day of the month. , I've just done it that way in different amounts. Does that make sense?
Jordan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. That I was just more wondering like on the amount in particular, how long it took you to kind of get there. it's interesting cuz I, I've, I've had a hard time getting people to tell me like how much they actually pay themselves, you know, and it's, well, you can cut out for a moment.
It's just hard to get people to, I've had a hard time getting people to tell me historically as I've been building this business and trying to figure out how much to even pay myself. It's been hard to get people to. How much they're paying themselves, you know, in this online space. I'm like, okay, great.
That's how much your business is making. We're seeing all of these revenue figures. How much is everyone actually paying themselves? Like, I kind of need to know like, what's normal, what's like, correct. I mean Oh,
Kim: totally. Yeah. I think, I mean, I, I guess it's probably maybe vulnerable for people. I see money very, very neutrally.
I, I do think maybe it's helpful for everyone to know, that's what I pay myself, but there's. I like to have a really big buffer in our business checking account, so I probably have $40,000 sitting in there that doesn't need to be there. So I could, I could pay myself more each month. I just choose not to because I like to have the availability too.
If something happens to team, we had someone totally who knew someone last year to like bonus them out and like, cover them for a month. And if I wanna do our website, I don't know. Just like if things are going on and I, I keep talking about revenue share, but because it's so important for me not with both revenue share and booking, cuz I am doing one-on-one work.
I. . I have such a, a rule with myself that I will not bring someone on if I'm feeling like desperate for money or like, like it needs to be about the work. Yeah. So having that there makes me feel very, just like I never need money. People can't see me. I'm saying air quotes. So if that's helpful for everyone to hear too, I technically could pay myself more, but this helps me.
With my mindset to like show up clean for, for my business?
Jordan: For sure, for sure. Yeah. I think, I think money gets really simplified, down to like revenue and expenses. But then there is how much are you paying, how much are you paying yourself? How much cash on hand do you have? Like there's all, how much are you investing?
All of these different things around money to think about. It doesn't just have to be. , oh, I'm gonna make X amount in revenue this year. You know, like it's very nuanced and your goals can adapt and change based on the season that you're in in your business. Someone in, in their business seven years is obviously focusing on and doing very different things than someone who's a year in their business or two years into their business.
So I think that's super, that's super helpful context to have too. So. Well, this was super awesome. What else do you wanna share with us about money before we wrap?
Kim: What do I wanna share with you about money? This is a little bit of a, a mindset piece around money, but this has been something that's really supported me and I guess two thoughts come up here maybe are helpful if we're closing out, but kind of the conversation we were having about that, like, oh my gosh, am I even making an offer?
Like how does it compare to other people? I have never felt more free in my business than I do this year and have never given less F's than I give so much. I care so much about my clients and my work, but just in terms of hitting a revenue number or chasing numbers, and I think it's because I went through that experience of seeing how much the opposite was true for me and how wrapped up I was in without even realizing it.
I would've never told. that I was like stuck in proving or stuck in chasing numbers. Like I literally would've told you that wasn't the case and, and thought that was true. And I didn't realize till I had like, was getting in my head around that and the work I did around and releasing that. And really just seeing how like safe and okay and like how, like what I love what I'm doing and like that's all that kind of really matters at the end of the day has been the most free.
experience for me in business, and it's just made me fall in love with my business in a whole nother way. And so I wonder everyone to hear that because I think sometimes, I mean, I love talking about the money, but I think we forget like the whole point of money and the reasons most of us started our business in the first place, and.
I have found when we're in that place too and we kind of create that like security and safety within our selves where we don't need to make more money to feel safe or we don't need to make more money to prove something where we don't need to make more money to keep up or to like buy the thing to make us feel better.
I'm all for the things, but like when it's to make us feel better, it's actually ironically, so much easier to expand and make more money because it's such an inside out experience. Not that like I need this to feel good. for anyone who needed to hear that, that that's what felt very important to say, which is very not practical numbers, but very much on the mindset side of things.
Jordan: No, totally. I, I totally agree. I think when we've got that kind of like stress and pressure on us, to hit any kind of arbitrary goal like that because it usually is like a little arbitrary. we usually make not the best decisions. and I talk a lot about this when I talk about firing clients because almost always when we get into bad situations with clients, it's because we were like, well, I just need the money
You know? so yeah. I love that advice. Well, this was fantastic. We'll have in the show notes of course, where everyone can find you. But thank you so much. It was great to have you. Thank
Kim: you so much for having me and for again, opening up the conversation. It's such an important one, so I appreciate you.
Jordan: Thank you.