For the full show notes and access to resources mentioned in this episode visit https://www.easyscaling.com/blog/episode25
In this episode, we’re talking all about failure. We dive into how I define it, my approach to failure, the biggest fails I’ve experienced, what I’ve learned, the support I tap into to get through failure and more…
My guest is Julia DeWolfe, she is one of my coaches, a certified Cognitive Behavioral Therapy practitioner, and what she calls an 'everything coach' for entrepreneurs.
Julia is a regular guest on the podcast and together we explore the more emotional side of business ownership and dig into many of the things that I've personally struggled with or overcome in my own business.
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Connect with this week’s guest Julia DeWolfe
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Real Talk | How to move through failure with Jordan + Julia
Jordan: Alrighty. In this episode I'm chatting with Julia, the lovely Julia, who you all know, who has been here time and again, and will continue to be here to help facilitate conversations that are more about the things I'm going with, what I'm overcoming, et cetera, et cetera. So today what we're diving into is failure.
We're talking all about the failures. I've been through how to move through failure, the lessons that I've learned, a lot of juicy stuff. And ironically, if you didn't hear, when we recorded this episode, we actually had a massive tech glitch and it didn't record. And so that was the ultimate irony and lesson in failure.
But we were very fortunate in that the amazing people here at Riverside where we record, were able to recover the audio. We're all in luck. Mostly Julia and I are in luck because we were not wanting to try to re-record this episode. So I really hope you enjoy this conversation.
Welcome, welcome everyone. Welcome, Julia. Back to the podcast for the hundredth time.
Julia: Hello. It's nice to be back for the hundredth time .
Jordan: It is, it is. I'm excited for this, we're gonna talk about one of my all time favorite topics, which is failure .
Julia: It's everyone's favorite topic.
Jordan: Yeah. . Yeah. where should we start?
Julia: Well, you wanna just jump, jump right into the, the good stuff. Like when you, when you think of the word failure, how are you defining failure? When are you thinking of it?
Jordan: Oh, man. How am I defining it? Okay. I probably have like a broader definition of failure than some people, because I think even making like a typo in an email is a failure
I think failure ranges all the way from like teeny tiny things, like mistakes all the way up to like, I don't know, falling on my face, failing, missing like a goal or, I don't know. I, I, I don't, I can't wrap my head around this right now for some reason.
Yeah. It's kind of a,
Julia: a big question. What if we break it down? Because I think for a lot of people there's kind of that big sliding scale, and then some failures are like outward failures. But I, I would argue that when you have your own business, most of the failures, like maybe 95%, maybe even 99.9% of the failures are actually.
inward things or things that we're kind of aware of ourself or goals that we had for ourselves. Like that idea of missing the mark. But what if we break it up into like, tiny failures, big failures, right? So there's like those smaller things. And then does that give you some more clarity?
Jordan: Yes. And what I'll also say is that I kind of, I kind of see two sides to failure.
Not just like on, not on the size of the failure, but more on like the experience or is it a failure? Like is it an action, like failure as a verb versus failure as a a, like adjective. Like, or a, is it an adjective? Describes me, ask me. Absolutely. Do not ask . Dang. I should have Googled that first. Okay. failure as like an action.
So, you know, I failed because I made a mistake in an email. Okay. Whatever. That's like. Pretty small and not all that important, but I do categorize it as failure versus I feel like a failure , that feels like the two kinds and the two very different types of failure that come up for me. That's
Julia: a very good distinction.
And from a coaching perspective, that's exactly something that I pay attention to, to, if somebody's, if somebody's talking about like, well, I just feel like it failed, or I feel like I am a failure. Right. because we can have different levels of like embarrassment or guilt, like, oh, I should be doing a better job.
Or like all those different things. But, you know, Is about what we do, it's about our actions. And then shame is about who we are. And you can kind of see that broken down in those two of like, oh, I messed that up. You know, I that, that was a failure, that was alop. We might feel a little bit guilty about the time that we spent on something, or we could have done a better job or whatever.
But that idea of like, I am feeling like a failure, that usually gets wrapped up in some different shame and embarrassment because it, at its core, it's about who we are, how we're viewing ourselves in that moment.
Jordan: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Do we wanna open that can of worms? I mean, I'm like, well, I mean, I wasn't, I'm down.
I'm down to go there. But
Julia: I wasn't totally planning on it to be honest with you. But then you said it and I was like, well, yeah, there it is. And I felt like people needed to know people. They needed to know.
Jordan: Yeah. Well, I think what's important too about thinking about failure in these two different ways that we didn't plan to talk about, but we're here now.
The one is pretty easy to like get over. I think like I used to be, I still am a perfectionist, but I used to be way more like debilitated in daily life by my perfectionism than I am now. And so like, you know, think about things like reading an email five times before you send it and then going back one time like one more time after you already sent it and rereading it.
Jordan: Okay. I don't do that anymore. That's not healthy. and at least it's not healthy for me. And then even if I do make a mistake, I hate when I do this on stories. It's like you put a story up and they're like, shit, there was a typo on that word. Whatever. I don't care anymore. I'm over that kind of failure personally.
cuz I just don't have time. But the other kind of failure, is much harder. To deal with and takes a different, like you gotta have help dealing with that kind of failure. Some people need
Julia: help dealing with the small one too. What did you do for those? Cuz you said you just don't have time, but do you feel like there was anything else that played into you being able to navigate like the smaller things or not, you know, not feel so caught up in the perfectionism
Jordan: side of things?
You tell me. I feel like that's evolved more so with us, working together than any other time in my life. I, I, and I don't know if it is because I'm busier. I have two kids. My business is a lot bigger. like it's just the, the scale comparison of like a typo in email compared to some of the other things that I'm dealing with on a pretty regular basis is just like, I don't know, it makes it seem like really Yeah, silly.
And I just legitimately don't have time. Like I don't have time to repost that story. Like I've, I've given it all the time that I can and. I gotta move on . I don't know. It's a little
Julia: bit of a perspective shift. Like you said, you know, the, the pond got bigger of other things that are happening. Yeah. So your perspective can, can shift a little bit, but, something that I know that we've worked on a lot, and maybe you don't want me to say this.
Suppose it put it out there, I'm scared. is that feeling of, you know, it's, it's not reflecting poorly on you as a human, right? Like, if you have a typo and an email, it's not saying this is, you know, this is a big mistake. But at one point those kind of things really did carry a lot of weight for you of like, how is this going to make me look to my potential clients that there's these like mistakes happening because it, you felt like it reflected really poorly on you.
Jordan: Yes. Yes. I do know that we've worked a lot on that. I don't have, I, I don't know if I could pinpoint like any particular thing that we've done, but I know that we have worked a lot on that. And, and for me it's usually just like noticing those types of things more helps me just like do them less. But also honestly, I think a lot of that stuff comes down to confidence because as the business has grown and I have, I have continued to have more and more evidence for.
What I do is valuable and I have really stepped into owning that more. Then the other stuff just doesn't, like hit as hard, you know what I mean? It's like, whatever, I made a mistake. Everybody makes mistakes. It's not gonna, like, I don't really care. , you know, if people see it and are like, oh my gosh, she's an idiot because she forgot to put an apostrophe on that word
I'm like, yeah, I just don't, I don't care about that because if that is gonna determine whether or not they wanna work with me or not, then like, I don't know. I, I'm still like definitely a stickler on things and a perfectionist and I spend a lot of time on those things. but definitely not as much.
Julia: Yeah. The, the confidence and evidence piece I think is a huge one, and that's something that people can be working on at any point of their business, but especially once you have some business experience under your belt. Yeah. Because then you can be looking and you can say, okay, I have this belief that.
If I am not doing everything a hundred percent perfectly, a hundred percent of the time that my business is gonna fall apart or I'm going to lose clients, then we can start to look at like, is that totally true? Have I ever made a mistake in business? Has my business fallen apart? What evidence do I have to show that?
people are still choosing to work with me? What evidence do I have to show that even if I make a mistake, people are still here? And then it just starts to allow us to get some perspective on how true that belief is. And once, once we have that shift, our brain will naturally start to look for the evidence to support the belief that you hold.
Julia: That's what we're doing all the time. We are all taking in hundreds of thousands of pieces of information every single day. But the only stuff that really strikes us is the stuff that our brain deems important and also that matches up like to something that's going on in our life, . And so when you can shift the focus of that belief around like what it personally means about you, your brain will naturally start to find evidence to support that new belief.
So that's where it can feel a little bit like, I know we've done a lot, but what was it? It's just that once you give your brain the tools, it wants to make sense of this, it wants to help you move to the new reality. We're not really, our brain's not really trying to make us believe something
Jordan: that's not true.
Yeah. All the time. This, everyone should go back and listen to that again. And it's like a really simple. It's a really simple concept and it's backed by science for sure. I, I can't pull any studies like out, you know, my, you know what, but I know that for sure that there's studies on this and we can maybe drop 'em in the show notes.
Maybe we can find 'em after. And you may know of some, but, there's all of these biases that we have, and I know you and I have, you have a list of biases and we run through these things, on our calls pretty regularly to see like, okay, what is actually happening here? are we catastrophizing or are we whatever?
You know, you'll know all the names for all the things more than I will, but it's, it's a real thing. It sounds really simple. It's actually quite hard to do in practice and like with anything in life and in business, it is like a legitimate practice. And, and, and this, this is one I do not feel like I have.
A handle on yet. I, I think that we've made a lot of progress, but, even recently, like when I get into spirals, when something feels really big, like a really big bad thing in my business, even though on the one hand, especially intellectually, I can look at that and be like, okay, this is actually good, and this means that something good is happening.
Even though it feels really bad in the moment, it's still really easy to spiral and instantly be like, oh my gosh, a client doesn't wanna continue with us and that means X, Y, Z, and that means, and then that means, and then that means that I should just stop doing my business. Like, it's so easy to do that, to do that spiral, and then to see all the evidence to support you all the way through the spiral.
It's crazy. What the hell is that?
Julia: It's called meaning making and we're all doing it all the time. But like you said, you can find the evidence that, you know, to support you to the end point, but what do you find helpful? What, what are some of the things that you're starting to implement in order to combat
I think that two things that come to mind here. One is something that's not really an intentional thing that I'm implementing. It just comes with, again, practice. So I've talked about this on the podcast before, that it wasn't that long ago that we had our very first client, not right. Very first, like we had a 100% retention rate for over a year since starting, which is a totally unrealistic metric to hold yourself too.
Jordan: Right? Which I know again, intellectually that it, that doesn't make sense and that that's gonna end. But when it actually ended, that was really, really tough for me. And even though it was only one client, I mean, I was seeing evidence left and right of like, oh my gosh, this whole, this whole thing is gonna like blow up.
It's gonna blow up. And then when I actually looked back, I was like, oh, why did I feel like five clients just fired me when actually only one, like why did I jump to conclusions about literally all of my other clients? Just because this one client didn't wanna renew and it was for a reason. Totally. Like it was, it was for their own reason, right?
Like it didn't really have anything to do with us. So that was kind of interesting. So I would say just a practice of one, ripping the bandaid if it's never been a failure that you've experienced, and having support and ranting and getting help, getting out of the spiral as much as possible. But the other thing is, I don't know if I've done it intentionally, maybe a little bit, but fishing for compliments in times like that.
And I really don't think I've done it intentionally. It's just kind of, it kind of happened naturally that we were starting to ask for testimonials for some of our other programs around that same time and very recently. And. I mean, it was like several weeks where I was getting all these like nice things people were sending to me.
I was like, oh, this is really great. Like I actually do provide value to the world and to my clients like, oh, this is great timing, , dude, this is gonna keep me going through this spiral. I'll be riding this high
Julia: for a while. Yeah, .
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I, I think like practically that really helped.
Julia: Yeah, that those are two super practical things.
So one is actively seek evidence opposite, right? And that's something that I have people do all the time. I know we've done that a lot where it's like, what's the belief that's going on? What evidence do you have to support it? But what evidence do you have to show that that's not true? And then we also will work on like, what thing, what thoughts are you modifying in order to fit that belief?
Like, oh, those clients are happy with me, but. Probably not in a month. Like they're probably gonna fire me in a month anyway, right? Like we can really start to go out. But when you force yourself to look at that, you realize like, oh, my thoughts aren't totally accurate here. So by baking yourself, go and ask for evidence to the contrary, right?
Look and see if you're worried about something. Ask people how they feel about it. Be open to getting the feedback and let yourself feel good about it. And then also don't make something about you that's not about you, right? Like if somebody is, if somebody's leaving or you know you're losing a client and it's for their own reason, then that 100% says nothing about you or the services that you provide or any of it that has nothing to do with you.
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. And I just talked about this. I don't know it was in an email or something, because sometimes it is about you, but like not about you usually as a person, right? Like it can be something that. Can be addressed and still not be about you. Right? Like that's the, that's, that's like differentiation.
Mm-hmm. , I, I think between is it about you or is it about something adjacent to you that you can actually impact? Right. And the, or is it about somebody else Completely. And you don't have anything like, those are, those feel like the three buckets and I feel like often we go straight to, it's about me as a person.
Julia: And the reason why that can happen a lot of the time is again, back to that idea of guilt about what you do. Shame is about who you are. When we're feeling a lot of shame, like where if we're very protective of like, I don't want anybody to tell me that I'm doing a bad job for an entire slew of reasons, not the least of which is just, who's gonna like that anyway?
When we're feeling, if we have some shame around stuff, shame is a very porous emotion. So when we are operating in a space of shame around something, and then if somebody comes to us and says this, you know, this wasn't really acceptable, it becomes about us. It doesn't become about the task. It becomes about us.
Because in our head space, whatever somebody tells us at that time, we're letting it through. We let it become about us. We believe things because even if somebody to come to come to you and say, you know, this is about you, and they're trying to make it more about us, if we're in that space of shame, we could believe them.
If we're not in the space of shame, we would. that has nothing to do with me . You know, we would, we would have a little bit of a quicker self-protection mode there, but shame is a very porous emotion. So that's why a lot of the times, when we're putting ourselves out there, we are opening ourselves up to feeling a little bit more shame because the stuff's very personal to us.
We're afraid of feeling embarrassed, all those things. so when we get less than stellar feedback, that's why a lot of times it makes a bline right to the, what does this say about me?
Jordan: Yeah. I'm gonna make a potentially bold statement here, and I don't know if other people are talking about this or, or saying anything along these lines and or if it's even true, but it kind of feels true that this shame component and like the, the taking things personal seems to me like a uniquely female business owner struggle.
Julia: I think it is a lot. In a female owner, business owner struggle, I think that men are a hundred percent experiencing it, but in a very different way. Yeah. And it's showing up in a very different way, but, I, I think that women, as we're running our businesses, it's just in like literally anything. It feels like it can trip that off because it's, it's so every piece of our lives and every piece of everything is so equally important.
And I feel like it's, it becomes very murky there where the shame thing kind of shows up and it's, it's popping up in, in all of the ways. So I don't know that it's like uniquely there in my own personal side of it, but I feel like it's hugely overlooked. Massively
Jordan: overlooked. Yeah. I guess maybe. Maybe I should clarify my bold statement here.
or rephrase it. You can keep your
Julia: bold statement. I . Well, I think I just,
Jordan: I'm not gonna let it go. I'm just gonna clarify it. Yeah. cuz obviously everyone experiences shame for the most part. Like, I shouldn't say everyone, but like, most people experience shame. Totally. Of course. What I think is unique and like you said is overlooked or maybe needs to be talked about more, is that because of how we are as women, at least for me, how I show up as a woman compared to how I see like my husband show up and interact and react to things, I think. I think there, I think that that can make business ownership harder Yes.
For us to, to do and to stick with, because this gets triggered I think, really easily. Like, I don't know. I, I like, I'm getting into like some maybe big things here that people are gonna disagree with me on, but whatever. I, I feel like the way that, the way that business ownership is like characterized, like there's always gonna be failure, there's always gonna be risk, there's always gonna be people doing things that are gonna make us feel like shit.
Like, that's just like what's gonna happen. It's gonna be filled with rejection, it's gonna be filled with hard things. And I think, I think women and definitely me, the type of woman that I am, I am more prone to react. To those things in a way that makes, makes me feel bad. Mm-hmm. . And, and that's the hard, that is the thing that is like, for me, hard to move through.
It's like a, that's the constant practice. Like I can do hard shit all day and I can work hard and I can make tough decisions. But like, that is the thing that makes it hard is like the emotional layer and the, the meaning making and the taking it personal. that makes it just like hard to get through and stay committed to
Julia: super hard.
And, and I agree with that. I totally agree with that. And I, I think that we also see that a lot in the way that, We're kind of conditioned to behave. You know, a lot of, a lot of women feel very responsible for other people's emotions, right? And so we take on a lot of how other people could be perceiving this or feeling about this and where, where, you know, 47 layers too deep into that experience where, and we see that a lot.
You know, we've talked about boundaries. We see that a lot around the fear that people have around setting boundaries. It's usually not about standing up for themselves. It's how is that person gonna perceive me afterwards? What if they get mad at me? And so we're in that space where we're really conditioned to be very.
Managerial of other people's emotional experiences. And that's a lot. And that's, that's really exhausting. But then you also factor in, I mean, I think of it was a study, I think Harvard Business School did it where they had, a female CEO and a male ceo. And they, the scenario was exactly the same. They both said the exact same words.
They fired the same person. And then the two groups said how they viewed, how the CEO handled it. And for the man, the boss, that was the man, they were like, he was assertive. He did such a great job. Like so clear. And then for the woman, they were like, oh, she's was kind of bossy. Like she was kind of mean.
Like, so people's perception is another thing that's very, very different for how they perceive women who own their own business. And so we're kind of aware of that happen. All the time. And so what people say to us may be different than what they would say to a man in the same situation. Mm-hmm. . And also how we perceive it or how we think that they'll perceive it can be very different too, because of the experiences we've had.
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting that like, even just the exact same information and, and, and tone and everything is gonna be received differently. but I would also argue again, at least for me, I, I do react more emotionally to things and, and I know that about myself and that's fine. And that means that I have to like sometimes deal with things in a different order that maybe some people would deal with them in, which is maybe messaging you before I make a decision or a message to anybody, you know?
Right. Like you can, you can solve for that. Like if you are aware of it. And I, I will of course also say that I think there are a shit ton of pros to being a woman as a business owner and like the type of culture and, and community and, just like loyalty that we, I feel like have created on our team and the way that we approach that and the way that we value, we're kind of off topic here on failure, but like the way that we value, balance and flexibility and family and all of the things, like if I'm just thinking about like how we run our company and our team.
but again, there are unique challenges, I think. Mm-hmm. to being, to being a woman leader generally, but being a woman business owner, more specifically because of the risk and rejection and, difficult situations that are involved.
Julia: Yeah. And I don't think we're too far off because the potential for failure feels like it's.
Everywhere. , a lot of times as a, as a woman business owner, because we are wired differently, we're not just small men, we are wired differently. We look at things different and that's a, that's a gift. I think that that's an incredible gift. So I think there's a lot of benefits and I mean, I know I'm having a great time.
You're having a great time. We're all having it. We're all having a good time. So for the most part, yeah,
Jordan: for the most part we're having a great time. Right, .
Julia: So, but you know, one of the most common things that I hear in my practice is, especially with women who have their own business, however, they're spending their time, they feel like they're spending it in the wrong way.
They feel like they're a failure in one area or another. And so it's like, okay, your business is going great, but you feel like a failure because like, maybe your house is in chaos or you feel like you're not spending enough time with your kids, or like, there's just this constant pull of flagging.
Where's the failure? Where did I fail today? Even if you did all this other stuff.
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. That is tough. I don't know if I can tackle that
Julia: shit. I don't. I think that one's gonna need a, a whole episode to
Jordan: itself. Yeah. We're actually, we're, we're, we're gonna do a series on, you know, juggling mom life and business life and so you and I will have a very long chat just about that.
So I think we can dive into a lot of the nuance on family and motherhood and kids and all of that. Then, so should we like talk about some actual failures or like what do we, where should we go from here? Sure. Why not? Hmm. What, what can you think of, you're supposed to ask me what my biggest failures or the Yeah.
The ones that come to, to mind when I think of failure, but I kind of wanna ask you what you think my biggest failures have been. Oh my gosh, . What? Okay, let me rephrase it. What do you think I have perceived as my biggest failures during our time together, which has been since I started this business.
Right. So I would have to review some,
Julia: some notes, . So I, when I think of, times that are failure, and I know that we've talked about it, but there was one particular stretch of time where you had the charge back from a client and, you know, that kind of stuff happening, with losing some clients and trying to find your ideal client.
and I think that that's definitely the biggest one that Yeah, you kind of go back to. Do you agree with that?
Jordan: Yes, because, and okay, I wanna go down this rabbit hole on like the, the putting ourself back in a certain place of time and experiencing it again, even if that's not what's happening. Yes. So remind me of that.
I think, you know what I'm talking about there. Yeah. I, I definitely feel, I definitely feel like that was my biggest, like, time of feeling like a failure. but also on paper probably looked the worst or, you know, I had a lot of evidence that things were not going well at that time financially, which, you know, I think everyone's got, I think everyone probably has like certain things in their business that get at them.
more so on the side of failure. And, and for me, like that's often financial stuff. Like I spend a lot of time thinking about finances and maybe everybody does, but I, I just feel like I spend a lot of time worrying about that kinda shit. So, we won't go deep on money mindset today, but I've talked about this some on the podcast, but just to reiterate and, and, you know, set the stage here, I did have.
Jordan: I did have someone, a client that I took on who was not a good fit, and we've talked all about red flags and firing clients In another episode, people can go listen to that. But, I took this client on that I shouldn't have taken on now in hindsight, and started working with them very quickly, realized it was not good, and that I was correct in my, read on them originally.
And so fired them. Ended up having to give them a refund, a partial refund, based on the time and stuff that they had left that we hadn't fulfilled for them. But they proceeded to do a charge back to my account and, and take back the entire amount, which was not ideal, financially and. There was other things kind of at that same time, and I don't remember what they were, but like I think I had maybe made some investments and I was kind of counting on this client and then ended up not only firing them but also refunding them fully.
And it just, it was bad all around and I had to cash out some of my personal investments to like pay some business bills. but that is definitely what I like to describe as the deepest darkest time in my business so far.
Julia: I did think of another one though,
Cause we've talked about that one already so people know that one. But I mean, who's not sitting on a bucket of times that they're like, oh man, you look so nervous right now. . I
Jordan: am like terrified to know what the other ones need to be. Okay. So I
Julia: was thinking of a time where, it seemed like all of your clients were kind of going through a similar.
Thing and this, this ended up working out for the good, but all of your clients were kind of going through a similar thing and then you were also having some like growing pains as far as the team where you were starting to shift over into having a team and like they're gonna handle the things and and you really had hit a moment where you were like, if this is how it's always gonna be for the rest of time, I don't think I can do it.
Jordan: Yeah. Do you remember that? Yes, I do. I think that's happened a couple times since then. Actually giving people a really nice rosy picture of what the back end of my business looks like. Okay. First to like put a final point and then to remind us to come back to this, to the deep dark time, the deepest, darkest time in my business.
I did have my best month ever the next month my like first 50 K month. So like, you know, that is not an uncommon pattern. So just as a reminder, that is like very typical for what I see, at least in, in my business, that some crazy, terrible shit happens. And then like the most epic thing happens pretty soon after that.
So that, I think the, the importance of like reminding everyone that that happened, is to. Is to share that, you know, we've talked about this, that that was potentially something that you call business trauma. And that, that has kind of stuck with me as like a, I have like a really strong emotional reaction to thinking back to then and like sit in front of, in front of my computer and with my husband trying to figure out like, how am I gonna pay these bills?
And can I get out of some of these contracts, like, like investments that I've made, or what is the path forward here? and running worse case scenarios in spreadsheets. Like, okay, what if this happened? What if these clients left? Or what if, you know, I, I ran all kinds of scenarios. What if I shut my business down and just had to fulfill the obligations that I had was already locked into contractually with clients.
Like, I mean, I ran all the way through worst, worst case scenario. How much debt am I gonna have to pay off and how long am I gonna have to pay it? You know, like those types of things. Very, very dark . Okay. And so that I like, even though I like bounced back from that, like extremely fast, it stuck with me.
Mm-hmm. . And, and what was interesting that you had brought up recently is that we are kind of at the same time of year as we were when that happened last year. And I've been, you know, I mentioned earlier that I kind of recently gone down this like spiral, after one of our, our first client ever didn't renew.
And what one of the things that you asked me that I think was really, really helpful is, okay, what of this is. Like, what if this actually needs to be like addressed and looked at and maybe changes made or solved for or whatever. And what of this is you just like freaking out because it feels really similar to what happened before.
Julia: I don't think a lot of times we think of our businesses as being traumatic to us, but when stuff like that happens, it is, it is. It's something we're not emotionally prepared for. It's incredibly scary. and it's so stressful. It's even just when you're talking about setting up the str, the spreadsheets and all of it.
I feel like my heart rate like picking up as you're talking about it. And I think if any of us have ever been in a tight squeeze like that, you know, that feeling of just like absolute panic that sets in, that's, that's upsetting and it's business trauma and so. , you know, trauma has us existing in every other timeline except the one that we're currently in.
So it has us in the past. It has us worrying about the future, but it's never in the spot that we're currently in. And so when we can kind of hone back into our current reality and look and also understand this, you know, I think I've heard this song before , it's not a Taylor song and I didn't like the ending.
So, you know, we, we have to recognize where, where we're starting to act up a little bit because we're trying to save ourselves the problems before or we're afraid we're about to go down that same road. So grounding into the timeline you're currently in can help to clarify, okay, what's actually
Jordan: requiring action here?
Yeah. I'm like pulling up the exact numbers cuz I wanna look at this because this is what, this is what. Kind of pulled me out of my funk. And my spiral recently is one, looking at the evidence and the evidence really wasn't there. , I was like totally applying like one situation and one action and making it mean a bunch of things that it didn't mean.
And I was, I, I was terrified that I was gonna get back into that same situation that I was in. And so I, I was just not in the right, like head space. And I also wanna say that like our business doesn't function in isolation from the rest of our lives too. So I think also partly why this, why this happened and why I went back to that deep dark place recently is because of all of the other things that were going on in my life too that was making me feel not as resilient as I usually feel like I am. And I know we talked about this too, because I just was depleted.
I I was sleep deprived. I was sick, I had sick kids. We decided to like for the , for the most part, move across the country. and which is interesting because I had just moved across the country when the deep dark time happened too. So there was like a little bit of like weird overlap in, in situations that I think kind of triggered that getting back into that mindset and that head space.
So just think about that too, like we're not always, we're not always gonna react to things in our business the same. Depending on what's also going on in our lives, you know, that's why
Julia: it's so important that we, especially when we're getting support, because we've been talking a lot about different things that you've done to support yourself, but then if you're looking at, okay, I'm gonna get support from someone, having someone who understands that is so important because our, we are not just this little cube and then we're our next little cube.
Like all the ver where you need like that holistic approach in order to understand what else could be factoring in to this situation and, and getting the validation and support around that too.
Jordan: Yeah. So where I was going with this, and I pulled up these numbers, and for anyone who came to my masterclass that I did on like the behind the scenes transparent, like overview of everything that we've done, you've seen some of these numbers, but that deep dark time I was, I.
I think I was doing about $8,000 a month in revenue back then. But then my expenses were significantly higher cuz because I was counting on this new client and I was also thinking I was gonna get these other clients and like stuff fell through and my expenses were closer to like 12 or 13,000 a month for two months in a row.
So I was running a deficit of like four or 5k two months in a row. And that was like, what the f have I done? You know, I have, I have seriously screwed this up. That's scary. That's scary. It was very scary. It was very scary. and then again, like I said, we had like a 50 K month essentially the next month.
And our business looks very different now than it does. I mean, we typically nowadays do 30, 40, 50 k months. Like that's. Typical, and that was part of what pulled me out of this funk was when I had this person not renew and then I was like, oh my gosh, this is all, this is gonna happen and this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen.
Then we like looked at the books and I was like, okay, but we're gonna have a 40 k month end. So like, what am I freaking out about? It doesn't even make
Julia: sense. No, but it is valid, right? Where it's like, okay, cuz this has happened before. It's like the emotional side of it's valid, but then what you decide to react on or what, what thoughts you allow to hang around.
That's where then we get to like hone in and be like, okay, but no, this isn't based on my reality anymore. That's what happened in the past. It was really hard, but we got through it. We got through it, and we learned some stuff and we made some changes. So what do you think are some of the, the biggest things that you learned from, from that?
Jordan: dark time. one thing that I, that I learned, or one thing that is like. An action that I typically take when I can tell that I'm spiraling is, we run those worst case scenarios For me, I find that actually quite comforting because usually it's not nearly as bad as I think that it is. And so that can kind of snap me out of the, the assumptions that I'm making about how bad it is because I, I probably have a tendency to catastrophize a little bit.
So, I find that exercise to be very helpful because me seeing like the actual data and projecting out and looking at worst case scenarios is like, oh, okay, well, it's gonna be okay, like on paper it's gonna be okay, which for me is really comforting. And then I can get a little bit more objective with thinking about next steps.
So that's something I, I, I guess it's not something that I've technically learned. It's just like that's a, a hack. That we use pretty consistently for, for those times.
Julia: Do you feel like you learned anything about yourself?
Jordan: I think that, I talk about this all the time about how good things happen on the other side of the bad things, and I think that I, I continue to get more and more evidence for that, that makes me like latch onto it for hope.
more and more every time bad things happen, big or small. And so again, it's not necessarily something that I've learned, it's just that that continues to show up as the reality. And, and so because I, because I have so much evidence for it, I can really lean into that kind of like thought process and approach to this is, Like, I mean, what's the old thing from like, when I was in high school, that book came out, the Power of Now, and I think the, the phrase was like, this too shall pass.
And that's like the thing that I, I lean on is like, okay, this is temporary. This is not like, like you said, this is not gonna be how this is forever in ways like this is, there is an end here, there is a solution to be found here, for pretty much everything. Like the solutions aren't always gonna be easy.
and maybe we can talk about some more spec specific examples because the, the issues that you're talking about where I was like really feeling like, okay, this is how, this is always gonna be. Those aren't the same issues that I have in business now, but they're like close, right? So like when I get, when I find myself getting overwhelmed and having that feeling like, Oh my gosh, I can't, I can't keep doing this like this.
Jordan: Can't, I can't. This isn't sustainable. usually there's one or two things that are happening that are the real issues that need to be fixed. So, for instance, sometimes that's a client that's not a good fit. And we went through this recently that this client was not a bad person at all. They were not a good fit personality and like, communication wise with me or the team.
And it was causing a lot of problems. It was causing like daily stressful conversations to happen within the team of like, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna solve this? This can't keep going on. And like, we kept trying to solve it, kept trying to solve it. And it was eventually like, we're gonna have to let this go, this client go, and we're gonna have to eat the cost.
And by eat the cost. I mean, the majority of that refund came straight from me paying myself that month, which sucked. But as soon as it happened, like within minutes. I felt like a completely different person. So sometimes it's just like making a shitty decision that you have to make .
Julia: Yeah. So that's what I was going to ask you, because sometimes I think when we talk about failure, a lot of times, we're, we're very quickly redefining failure, where we're like, but was it really a failure?
Right? Like, was it really because you learn, if you learn something from it, if some, you know, then it's not really a failure. But sometimes things happen. Sometimes we make choices that aren't good choices, or sometimes we do drop the ball or like we do make a mistake. And it, I mean, in the essence of the word yes, it, it is a failure.
So how do you navigate something
Jordan: like that that is like an actual failure? Yeah. Mm. That doesn't happen often. Actually, if I think about it, that's usually not, I, I'm not usually failing in a way that like, I feel bad about myself. Like really? Like I feel like I did something that I shouldn't have done.
Like that's where my mind goes. That really doesn't happen. it's more, I don't know, maybe this is like a perspective thing, but I think most of the time when I'm seeing failures, they feel bigger than they are. They're maybe cumulative based on like other things that are going on. I don't know, maybe I, maybe I define failure more as just like problems and issues.
Like I, which is, we can talk about right or wrong, but that's where my head goes is like with things are not running smoothly, that feels like a failure. . And so when, when issues are coming up, it's like that's, that's, yeah, that's a failure. . Interesting.
Julia: That's some interesting insight.
but I think a lot of people feel that way. Again, back to what we were talking about at the beginning of like, how are we internalizing this? Right? When, that's what I was saying at the beginning, like 99.9% of the things that we flag as a failure are actually just things that are kind, you know, we're making them out to be a failure in our own head.
Nobody else is really privy to that viewpoint. Yeah. Because we're really turning it into something about ourselves. Yeah, so that's one of the things is sometimes, sometimes, you know, the amount of times that we're actually having a failure, and even if I were to try and define it, I'm like, well, I don't know.
Maybe if like you agreed to do something for a client and then you just like, Forget about it and for like long. Yeah, I don't do that long
Jordan: time. Yeah. See that's what I'm saying. Like I don't have those kinds of failures, right. That are like actually on paper failures, like for the most part, for the most part, I don't it.
When I think about failure, I am more thinking about like, I want things to be running perfectly. Yeah. This is like real me right here. Okay. I want everything to be going perfectly and for me to hit be hitting all of my goals, actually, I wanna be exceeding them. Like, let's be real. So if that's not happening, that feels like a failure.
This is a totally unrealistic thing. And I know this, I know this, and this is where the practice comes in. Because like I said, when I have that feeling of like, wow, this shit is like really going bad. like we're failing here. That is the like clear invitation to look at, okay, what's the actual problem?
So like firing the client. That's the, the, the situation with the client was the real problem that was making me then look at literally everything else that was happening in my business as happening badly. Like everything seemed like it was going wrong. When I was dealing with that stressful situation with that client, once the client was gone, wow, clarity, I now can like look at everything more objectively and see that that's not really a failure.
That's just like a process change that needs to happen or that's not really a failure. That's like you can see everything a little bit more objectively. And it's like another great example of this, it's like very recently, like last week. I kind of was doing a little mini spiral because I was thinking, oh my gosh, like this is not, I have this huge team.
Why am I so busy right now? Like, what is going on? Like, what am I doing wrong here? Am I failing? And it was a very simple thing. Like the, the issue was actually quite, quite clear. It just took a while to like, see the issue was I'm not delegating correctly right now. And how can we solve for that? that's not that big of a deal.
And, and like this brings us back to the beginning of like, you know, men and women. Like what a man, like, gosh, I hope that this is like not super controversial. Whatever. Maybe it will
Julia: be. And I'll at
Jordan: tons of listens. Yeah. Or I'll get canceled. I refuse to be canceled, so you can't cancel me. So there you go.
would a man be reacting in the same way to like, if there was some kind of situation where people. , like, like the business wasn't running, running smoothly. Would they be spiraling out of control, questioning their business, or would they just be like, what the hell is going on here? This is bullshit. Fix it, fix it, fix it.
Jordan: Do you do this, you do this, you do. Like, I don't know, in my head, they would approach it more objectively from the start. and so that's the thing that for me is like a non-negotiable, is having someone who can help me get from instant emotional reaction to help me through, help me navigate the emotions so that I can make the objective decision.
Julia: Yeah, because either or like this is another thing in, cognitive behavioral therapy where we have the two minds, right? So it's like the wise mind and the, the emotional mind, either or if we're only operating in one or the. It usually results in us not operating in a completely healthy way because we are meant to have both things coming into the picture.
Right. So the, not the wise mind, it's the logical mind and the emotional mind, the wise mind is in the middle that it has the crossover of the two together. you know, it's so hard. I don't know. I, I think that there is the balance of, like, we have, it's a unique gift to be able to kind of be more in tune with how other people are feeling or what's going on or how we want things to go.
That's, that's a really nice gift. And I, I hate to see it feel like it needs to be silenced in order to run a business. Right. And so that's where I love that the, the two pieces coming together, it's, it's possible for the two to exist. because it is hard. It is a lot. And we, I think the biggest thing is when we have something that goes wrong or we recognize something is.
Is a failure. you own it and you fix it, and then you can move, then you can move on, right? Like, if, if it just is allowed to kind of fester, then you, then it's gonna create a bigger problem. Now, now lots of different things will fall off, but if you see it, okay, this client's not working out for us. Yes, I did, I did have signals that maybe this wouldn't have worked, but I decided to go ahead with it for XYZ reason.
Well, then you own it and you fix it, and that's, that's what you did, right? Where you were like, okay, this isn't gonna work. And then you ate the cost. But in order for the happiness of your team, if you hadn't done that, then the, then you, you could still be in a spot where everybody's miserable. You could have people be quitting, you could have like all this stuff to start to explode.
But if you see the mistake and you own it and you fix it, you're still ahead of the game. I think that's the biggest thing with failure is that. It really only becomes a, a what I think most people would define as a fail, as a true failure. It really only becomes that when you don't do anything about it , when you don't like learn from it or change your perspective or fix it.
Like if you just allow it to exist and it's like, well, that'll just be over there. It's, it's just gonna get way too big.
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. yeah, this, all of this is so interesting. I didn't realize what you're gonna go down this like rabbit hole of what it means to be a woman business owner, but, I, yeah, I think about this quite, quite a bit actually.
And I don't know if it's because of my unique personality type combination and the fact that. I would consider myself to be a fairly emotional person. I don't think people would maybe sense that from me on the, on like the surface, just because I'm, I'm also pretty like, direct and no bullshit, but like I am a quite emotional person, like internally and behind the scenes.
Like you can make me cry pretty easily. , like anyone can make me cry very easily. I watched John Q last night and I cried like for most of the movie. I don't know, like I just, I'm like emotional and I'm sensitive and I, I actually think that's a really great asset. Like you said, like there's a lot of positives to that.
Positive. For me, it's something that has to be, I don't wanna word them, use the word manage, like that sounds bad, but it's something that has to be supported. In a, in a different way than maybe some people need support. For me to be able to show up and to build the type of business that I'm trying to build, I have to have support on that front, so that I can like, do the things that I tell other people to do and do the things that I, I know work well for me.
And that is like taking action and taking quick, messy action and not letting, you know, bullshit slow me down. And so I need, I need to have that support. Mm-hmm. , I don't know. It's not, it's not a bad thing, it's just, it just, and is
Julia: it is a thing, right. You know, it's kind of like, you know when, cuz we've talked about cycle thinking before and people will say like, oh, I'm just so hormonal.
Right? We're all hormonal all the time. Men and women, we all have tons of, like, we are just. Seas of hormones all the time. And it's the same thing with the idea of like being emotional or logical. We're all going through it all the time. We are meant to feel our emotions. We're not robots, right? Some people swing in the opposite.
We, we often think like, Whatever camp we're in. So say if we're an emotional person, we feel like I should be more logical. I need to be more like, we feel like that if someone's more logical, they're like, I, I should be like way more in touch with my feelings. And it's true, but we don't need to be a hundred percent in the other camp.
Right. And that's why when we start to feel, when you're starting to feel nervous about something Right. Or you're feeling like, who about it? Your gut is like, let's make a spreadsheet , because then it's gonna help you nail down. It's gonna bring you more to the middle of Yeah. Of the, the Venn diagram. So it's important like that.
It's important to have those tools to understand, okay, you know, am I the kind of person who on the daily, I'm in that more logical space? Well, what are some things that I could be incorporating that would help me feel more in touch with my actual wishes, wants and desires? if you're someone who it feels like every single day, you're just very, your mood is very much at the whim of like, whatever thought and emotion you're feeling, well, then you can start to think about what are some more tangible things that I could be incorporating into my day?
So that way I'm still making progress on this list or towards these goals, but trying to just scoot closer to the middle versus one
Jordan: extreme or the other. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. I, I think I used to look at it as being a bad thing, like being sensitive and being emotional. I don't know, that's cuz like how old I am.
If I grew up during a time where like people talked about being sensitive is kind of a negative thing. , I don't know. I don't feel like people talk about that anymore. But, it's definitely not, I don't look at it as something to be fixed, you know? And you talk a lot about this as like, you don't need to be fixed, like you are normal.
Whatever, whatever the reality is of like how you show up in your business, like is probably just normal for you. It's figuring out then what you need to feel like you're being like successful and effective and like, whatever. I don't know. It depends on your goals I guess, but like for me it's to be successful and effective and impactful and whatever.
and so I need help doing that. Yeah.
Julia: Yeah. Everybody. Yeah. And that's the thing is everybody needs help doing different things. But the important thing is like, get the help . You don't, you know, you don't have to be, I think something else, if you wanna keep talking about being a woman who owns a business, the loneliness factor of that is huge.
Right? Where, and we've talked about that before with like the strange competition and just people not being ready to be transparent and all that stuff. But, it, it's really hard if you're going this alone. Yeah. And so those failures will feel like they are, everything. Again, back to that perspective shift, right?
If you can get yourself in a perspective where you have, maybe you're in a mastermind or in your, in some kind of a group program where you can get a read on what's going on in other people's businesses, what's going on in other people's lives, it helps you to have that perspective on your business too, because most likely somebody else in that group is either currently going through the same thing or they just did, and so then you can get a little bit of a perspective grasp on some of these things that feel like failures and also what would be the path out.
And then it also just helps you not get, I mean, sometimes we get so lost, so, so lost inside of our own feelings, and it just drains us. It really, really drains us. So having some way that you can safely validate those emotions and really kind of just talk through it with somebody is huge. It's so, so huge to have that because otherwise, , how are you supposed to figure this out?
Honestly and truly, how are ? How are you supposed to figure out running the business by yourself? Showing up in a leadership position, doing really hard things, setting really scary goals, and then also being like, okay, that didn't work. , that didn't work. What about this? And be like, okay, what am I gonna learn from that?
That's exhausting. That's really exhausting if you don't have
Jordan: support. Yeah, for sure. Honestly, this is why we are moving to almost solely offering group-based programming because of the type of support that we provide. Like we're not doing, I don't know, I. For me, and honestly for most women business owners, in my opinion, you need two things.
You need the emotional mindset, support, which is what I get from you. And I think that I feel pretty strongly about this, that that needs to happen one on one. because otherwise you're probably not getting down deep enough into it. And also because I think that shit's contagious. And so I don't, that's why I don't run group programs.
Yeah. Well, and I admire that about you. and of course you reserve the right to change your mind, but I do think, I, like, I feel very strongly that that type of support needs to be one on one. It needs to be personalized, it needs to be deep into it, and you need to be sharing shit that you would under pretty much know circumstances, share with other people.
So, that I think is an important thing. The other piece is what you're talking about now with like more the strategy, more the practical, more the masculine, more the. Also feminine with community and encouragement and all. Like I, I think that works better in a group and that's why we're pretty much moving the majority of our efforts and our capacity to supporting our membership and our mastermind because it's critical.
And because I answer the same freaking questions left and right because we're all struggling with the same shit. You're either struggling with the back end of your business operations and you need help with that, or you're struggling with figuring out how to like delegate and build a team and scale.
Like those are the three things that you're struggling with. Right. And. There's not one way to do anything, but for the most part, we're having the same conversations over and over and over again and we're like chipping away at getting better at all three of those things all the time. Okay. So we should for sure be doing that in a group for sure, because we're getting inspiration left and I get inspiration from my clients.
They get inspiration from me, they get the inspiration from each other. Like it's just, it is the most efficient and effective way, which I am all about, as you know,
Julia: so. Absolutely. Yeah. Anyway, I think that that speaks to another thing that I think is important around failure is knowing where you're sharing it and what outcome to get.
Cuz you mentioned something about something being contagious and the importance of having one on one. Sometimes if we're sharing, you know, if we're trying to come at like, there's a failure and it's like this was a breakdown in systems. Okay. But if there's a, there's a failure where it's like I keep feeling like this says something about me.
So if we're looking like, okay, I feel like this says something about me, it's gonna be really hard to like float that out into the group , first of all. But you also can't really necessarily expect getting an answer there on that because then, you know, other people are gonna start talking about, yeah, I feel that same way.
Oh, this thing kind of happened too. And sometimes we can, I mean, sometimes it works out. I'm not downing this totally, but it's just we have to have realistic expectations of what we're looking for in each setting, right? Like, where's the proper place for us to take that failure in order to get real true support?
So I also agree that you need the two, you need the two things because I mean, at least do, but yeah. you need those, those two things happening because, you need to be comfortable. You need to feel safe. You, you really can't dig into this stuff to understand. Why is this so hard for me? Why do I keep coming around this?
Like, you, you need to feel so safe because most likely the thing that's driving that is something that you didn't even think that was the thing, and then it's gonna like hit you like a ton of bricks and then it just feels like the box is opened and now everything makes sense. You probably don't have the opportunity to do that if you're not feeling super comfortable with all the people around you.
Or even if you are feeling comfortable, you know, what are you gonna do in 10 minutes? You're gonna get through it. I, I feel very strongly about
Jordan: that. Yeah. And yeah, it's, it's the time. It's, it's the setting and it's just the pure amount of time. I mean, you've talked about this too, maybe on our last episode, about how we get to the meat of the issue pretty much like at the end of every call, you know, because it just takes so long to get there.
Even though we've been working together for over a year, it still just is like, I just wanna shoot the shit. Can we just shoot the shit instead? Like, I don't really wanna go there. You know? Yeah, I do know and, and I'm definitely not gonna, like, there is no way in hell I'm gonna open a can of worms like that on a group call with people.
Cause I know that we're not gonna have time. And I'm just like, I don't wanna go there. I don't want, I don't wanna go there with you half the time. I definitely don't wanna go there with five people or 10 people, you know?
Julia: Yeah. Let's add public speaking into
Jordan: it as well. Yeah. Right. So, I don't know. I, I do, I do feel strongly about this and I am not like getting down on anyone's program.
No. Like, don't get this wrong. This is just like my opinion on what works best for me and what I see typically working best for my clients. And it's why I've had people be like this flat ask me like, oh, I really wanna work on my mindset. I'm like, great, you should, we're not gonna do that in this program.
We're, we're gonna like, touch things adjacent to that left and right all the time, every day because it's like a big. Component of what you're gonna be dealing with and the thing, the way that you're gonna be asking me questions like, yes, of course, but all I'm gonna be able to tell you if you're like, I just feel like you know, the fact that this person didn't do this means this about me, I'm just gonna tell you.
Well, that's not true. And that's like the best that I can give you. That's the best that I can give you. You're gonna have to go explore that deeper with someone one on one. I'm just gonna tell you. That's bullshit. Now let's make a plan for, for doing it differently. Right? Like that's, we're not gonna be able to do that together.
And I'm not gonna lie about that good. Go work with
Julia: Julia. Yeah. Well it's a lot, it's different skill sets, you know, it's different. It's different things. And I think there's also power in having different, different categories of people that we work with on things. Yeah. Because then in your head you're like, this is what I'm working on.
This is what I'm getting ready for.
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. Having different categories, but also not having too many cooks at the kitchen too. Like that. That is a fine line there. Yeah. Anyway, maybe we won't go down that rabbit hole, but why? We'll, like put, say one more thing about this is that, you know, you'll remember this, this was recent when I reached out to you probably a few weeks ago, and I was I feel like everyone in my mastermind's kind of struggling with like some emotional stuff.
Does this sound like a good message to send them? Because like, I feel like I need to address it, but I don't really know how . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. that tells you
Julia: anything. Time to set the tone. Yeah. You're working hard. You're working hard. Yeah. Okay.
Jordan: Anything else? What else do we need to say before we close the book on failure for a while?
Julia: I don't know. I think it, you know, it really just comes down to if you're listening to this and you feel like you struggle with. , maybe not even not taking action because you're afraid of failure or doing all those things. Like just, just focus on what your actual outcome is here, that you're, that you want to happen.
And if the outcome is that you're doing something in your business, just remember that if you never do something because you're afraid of failure, well then you already, you already failed because then, like that's the outcome that you didn't want to happen. So try to get some perspective on what you're flagging as a failure.
Also checking in on what am I making this mean about myself? And then, try to factor in a few of these things, like, look for the evidence of is this belief true? Is this belief not true? Actively look for feedback if you're, if you're looking especially to beef up your confidence around things.
Remember that evidence equals confidence. Don't make something about you, that's not about you. And remember that you never stop filling in your business.
Jordan: That was good. Thank you. I've
Julia: been Did you come up with that? No, I took, I took notes the whole time, , so
Jordan: I would really come in with the clothes, with crafting, crafting of clothes this whole time.
I love it. I didn't even even thought about that. I would've been like, okay, see guys later. ,
Julia: as I've done this time, I took
Jordan: notes. Yeah, no, this was, this was, this was much better. I appreciate that. Yeah, those are, those are all great. and just remember that this is normal and you're gonna keep failing, hopefully at bigger things all the time.
So just, you know, buckle up. Here we go. Failing, it's not gonna go away. Nope. Love it. Learn. Love it.
okay, well on that note, we should have ended with you. But , sorry guys.
Julia: Get used to
Jordan: it. Get used to it. Suck it up. No, not, no, I'm not gonna go that far. It, it just, it's normal. It's normal. We're all failing all the time. It means you're not feeling, you're not trying whatever. That we can end with that cliche, right.
Okay. Okay. All right. This is great. Thank you. Thank usual. Thank you.