Tune in as we discuss how to structure your team, whether you need contractors or employees, how to show up as a leader, and all kinds of other really cool things related to HR. No matter what stage of business you’re in or your business model, this is a goodie.
For the full show notes and access to resources mentioned in this episode, visit https://www.easyscaling.com/blog/episode12
My guest is Kira La Forgia. With a decade of experience in People Operations in the corporate world, Kira is no stranger to the sensitive issues involved in the human side of running a business. There’s a lot to learn from hiring, onboarding, training, and managing the performance of over 500 employees for a multimillion dollar business. The good news is, Kira learned it all so you don’t have to. Kira founded Paradigm to bridge the gap between corporate HR policies and the modern needs of online entrepreneurs. Because Google might have almost all the answers, but it doesn’t have what your unique business needs.
Topics discussed:
Links/Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Jordan Schanda King:
Connect with this week’s guest, Kira La Forgia
*some links above are affiliate links which means I will get a small commission if you make a purchase with my link, but you will not pay any extra. I personally use and recommend these products!
Tune in as we discuss how to structure your team, whether you need contractors or employees, how to show up as a leader, and all kinds of other really cool things related to HR. No matter what stage of business you’re in or your business model, this is a goodie.
For the full show notes and access to resources mentioned in this episode, visit https://www.easyscaling.com/blog/episode12
My guest is Kira La Forgia. With a decade of experience in People Operations in the corporate world, Kira is no stranger to the sensitive issues involved in the human side of running a business. There’s a lot to learn from hiring, onboarding, training, and managing the performance of over 500 employees for a multimillion dollar business. The good news is, Kira learned it all so you don’t have to. Kira founded Paradigm to bridge the gap between corporate HR policies and the modern needs of online entrepreneurs. Because Google might have almost all the answers, but it doesn’t have what your unique business needs.
Topics discussed:
Links/Resources Mentioned:
Connect with Jordan Schanda King:
Connect with this week’s guest, Kira La Forgia
*some links above are affiliate links which means I will get a small commission if you make a purchase with my link, but you will not pay any extra. I personally use and recommend these products!
Ep#12 - How to hire and lead a team to help you scale your business with Kira La Forgia
[00:00:00] Jordan: All righty. In today's episode, we are talking about how to structure your team, whether you need contractors or employees, how to show up as a leader, and all kinds of really cool stuff around some HR topics and around growing your business around business models, different things like that. We do not do boring, so if you're hearing things like HR and compliance, don't worry.
This is not a boring conversation. It's fun. I hope it's insightful for you. My guest is Kira La Forgia. She is the founder of the paradigm, which exists to bridge the gap between corporate HR policies and the modern needs of online entrepreneurs. She has over a decade of experience in people and operations in the corporate world, and she is no stranger to the sensitive issues involved in the human side of running a business.
[00:00:51] Jordan: So again, we have a ton of fun. This is a long one. So just a heads up. You probably already saw that. I hope it will not deter you from actually listening to the episode because we get into some cool stuff. Particularly in the middle and the end, the beginning, we talk a lot about my business, how it's structured, and what we do.
So just a heads up on that. I didn't mean it would be a little bit of a sales pitch about what we do. We ended up that way because what we do is cool. So heads up and make sure you get to the end because we talk about some cool stuff around personality, styles, leadership, and all kinds of goodness.
[00:01:24] Jordan: So I hope you enjoy this conversation
welcome. Welcome, everyone. And welcome, Kira. I'm so glad you're here. thank
[00:01:32] Kira: you for having me. I have had it before. Excited. I just feel like it's just like, so. There’s this, like, you know, how, okay. So my employees call it a customer service voice. Mm-hmm, so you're like, we're in the office, and we're like, blah, blah, blah.
And then we like to open the door, and it's like, hi, how's it going? Like, that was like, we're like, blah, blah, blah. And then you're like, welcome to the podcast. And I'm like, geez, you're like Kelly riping right now.
yeah,
[00:02:01] Jordan: yeah. You know I gotta, I’ve got to be legit in the first five seconds to like hook people.
And then my normal raspy, deep voice comes back. And I just, you know, there will be some vocal fry and some uptalk, and I apologise in advance to everyone listening and to my husband because it's his biggest pet peeve. So welcome everyone to the easy scaling podcast. So we're gonna talk about some cool stuff for context, and I'm gonna have you do an intro, but for context, for everyone listening, Kira.
Has helped me a ton in the past couple of months, building my team and organizational structure. I call her my HR consultant. And she's, she's been helping me grow, grow my team, especially on the employee side, which has been this, this cool, exciting slash terrifying thing that I've been diving into this year.
So why don't you, why don't you tell everyone listening who you are and what you.
[00:02:56] Kira: Yeah, well, I'm Kira. So we, I started out as a corporate HR consultant and then sort of found my way into the online space. Especially as teams were transitioning into more remote and online businesses were starting to have to make, take action to scale, actually, probably really similar to you, Jordan, and having to find new ways to do it, that didn't replicate crappy systems that we all lived with in corporate at some point.
and it just sort of developed into a full service operational strategy through people. So people operations, and then our secret sauce is the HR compliance. So we help people kind of sort their people operations through building their perfect team structure based on their offers. And then we just make sure it's compliant across the board and longstanding and trying to avoid having people have to hire HR people on their team when they only have.
[00:03:53] Kira: Five employees or less. So , that's kind of our whole mission and goal. and that's how we got here. Essentially. I started with, I know this wasn't a hundred percent part of your question, but most HR consultants start in HR and then they just kind of ride the wave. And I actually started in small business operations, so small to medium.
So there's like a little bit of a crossover into the over 50 employee category. And so there's lots of benefits and things like that, that we in the online space generally think small business is just our small handful team, but that's not the way that the government sees it. so starting in operations and then sort of learning the leadership and management and HR through the last 10 years as kind of a necessity in my job, just gave us, gave me a really unique perspective.
And then I was able to build my team based on other people with similar experiences. So we could approach it in a different and less. Stuffy boring way. so you're in my program. So we just recently started a meeting the other day where somebody had met with a standard HR consultant and like, I could barely help myself, but I was like, HR people suck, man.
Like that doesn't even make any sense for this business model. So like we kind of talked about earlier. Yes, we are HR consultants. That's what you'd search for. That's our secret sauce. We'll keep you compliant, but we do it in a way that makes more sense for our industry.
[00:05:16] Jordan: Yeah, I love it. And I can, I can vouch, because that's exactly what we've done and it's been like invaluable to me and I know you've got some really cool programs and we will we'll drop those, like for everyone listening.
And for, for you here, if you don't know, I don't typically interview people who are like selling the thing that we're talking about. , and that's a bit of an exception today because we're gonna really be talking about how I've utilized you specifically in my business, which I hopeful will be helpful for everyone.
but you do have some cool programs and I'm in your membership and I've obviously worked with you. We've done a V I P day. And so we'll drop some links in the show notes for people who, who wanna take a look at that and are interested and, I know you do some cool stuff around leadership specifically too, like leadership and management, which we haven't really delved into, with me, partly because like, maybe I'm full of myself.
[00:06:08] Jordan: I don't know. I feel like I'm a pretty good leader, but that doesn't mean that I don't necessarily also need to still work on it, which is I'm sure what you would tell me. so that maybe will, will come on as another layer in the future. so let's see where to start, where to start. I think, I think I'll start with talking about the compliance stuff, because the compliance stuff honestly scares the absolute shit outta me.
And that's why I brought you on, because I was like, okay, I have 15 contractors and so everyone, so everyone knows, like I kind of accidentally grew an agency. and I grew it very fast. Like once I decided I was gonna have an agency, I was like, okay, let, let's have 12 people on the team, like in 30 days. And so that's what I did.
And then it, it got to be kind of complicated. So for anyone thinking about creating an agency, which I highly recommend, by the way, I think it's like a super fun and lucrative model. If you have a personality like me and you like to have a team and you like to do a lot of collaboration and it really just expands how you can serve your clients, which I think is really cool.
and so the way that I approach that was just hiring us out of contractors, which works for my business model. But you eventually get to a point where some folks on the team are doing things that aren't necessarily appropriate for them to be doing as contractors. So can you kind of talk. us through what that is.
[00:07:37] Kira: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's people want it to be really black and white. And I think that the way that. The law presents. It is that it is really black and white to decide whether or not somebody is an employee or contractor, but for the most part, there is gray area. And that's intentional because there's no way that every single business is gonna be able to run the exact same way using the exact same type of people with the exact same types of, you know, priorities or schedules or, you know, whatever.
there is definitely a point that you get to where the business is telling you, like, we need more from this role or we need more from this person. And then that's kind of where you were at, where I'm sure you can speak to where it was. Like, I just want to be able to ask for more of this. I want to lead them more.
[00:08:22] Kira: I want to manage their performance, like things that you really shouldn't or can't, or if you did, it'd be risky kind of thing. if they were a contractor. and I just think it's really. About paying attention to what your business needs and trying not to let your fears or like how you mentioned like the compliance piece, like hold you back from doing what's required.
So I think that's one of the biggest things is that we, as entrepreneurs are able to like juudge things up or change things a little bit, or make things super custom. And oftentimes we can get there really in a really productive way. And it can go take us really far when it comes to this particular topic at a certain point, we just can't juudge anymore.
Like it's like, no, I need to have more control over what they're doing. It's the way that our margins are gonna be met. I also want to feel like the team is really cohesive and long term, and those things are going your business is gonna tell you that. And I think that if, when it comes down to the contractor thing, it's a contractor should be easy.
And so within an agency model, like you mentioned, Those are so fun to work on because some people are going to always be contractors and they're gonna be the adjacent to the team. People are gonna know each other. They might, you know, Vox every now and then, or, you know, maybe work on the same projects occasionally or whatever.
but the core group of employees are the ones that we want the CEO to focus with, focus on and lean on and develop and grow with and kind of bank on. and those roles become super integral to the progression of the business. And if that's the case, then they shouldn't be a contractor because you're not gonna bank your business on.
[00:10:08] Kira: Another person's business. So I have this workshop and like, basically I made up the stupid analogy, cuz I just have to visualize things and it's like when you hire contractors and you're cool with like pouring your pitcher before it overwhelm, overflows into a few other cups, then that makes perfect sense.
Your business is one cup, your copywriter's another cup, your CFO's another cup. And some of those cups will always be there. There's no need to bring people on as employees like that. But at a certain point you get to this area, this thing where you're like, I'm sick of all these fricking cups. Like I just wanna bigger cup.
And like, I just wanna keep pouring into my own business and developing my own cup. And then we have our cute cup friends on the sides. and so we can definitely. Take some water and move it over and like be strategic about how we're doing that. But our business, the nucleus of our business is growing and developing alongside the people that the water people that live in that cup, the big one.
So it's fun to see how we can tweak things in a way. And also it can, there's no like black and white rules. So like, I often hear people that are like, Kira, you're not gonna like that. I say this, but I hired them as a contractor. And I'm like, I love it. Like I love hiring contractors. I think it's awesome.
Like, you know, or whatever, but at a certain point it's like, Just make sure you're not doing anything wrong because you, we don't talk about the stories that I get from the compliance perspective of people crying and their sales calls are all about the $30,000 bill. They have to pay because the contractor that they've been treating, like an employee filled out one form to the IRS, and now they have to pay the back taxes and penalties.
And you know, you never think it's gonna happen. And nobody talks about it. And it's really unfair to entrepreneurs like us, for people to be like my team, my team, my team, but never talking about what actually happens when you abuse people or take advantage of them, or you don't care about these laws and these rules cuz they are in place for like the betterment of our work environment as a whole, whether we like it or not.
so yeah, it's kind of weird like, like that, I guess.
[00:12:18] Jordan: Well, that's why, I'm glad I have you, cuz I think you you'd tell me if I was doing anything like that. Right. I'm not gonna get hit with some kind of like crazy. no
[00:12:26] Kira: thing, am I? No, no, that's the, that's
[00:12:29] Jordan: the I'm not abusing people, so yeah, no, I mean the, the thing that for me, well, a couple things that like really pushed me over the edge as far as like, oh man, okay.
I'm gonna have to hire employees was, well, let me give this context first. You and I met back in December, 2021. And at that point I think I maybe had like six clients, you know, and that was not an unmanageable amount of clients for me to actually be involved in kind of overseeing a lot of the daily communication.
But I was starting to see as, especially as I was approaching my maternity leave, that was gonna be in April. I was like, oh man, there's no way I'm gonna have to have someone like really being the, the go-to person for client communication. And I wasn't aware that that was any kind of problem until I talked to you and you were like, oh, well, like if you're like expecting them to do certain things, like get back to clients in a certain amount of time and they are like an integral part of your business operations.
And like all of these things, eh, they probably need to be employees. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. I think at that point we were kind of on the cusp of that being a thing. And then, my, my business has kind of had a couple of like explosions of growth and this, this new explosion of growth has been happening in the last few months.
And I went from like, I don't know, like six clients to like, oh, 20 clients. That's when for sure. I'm now not involved, like pretty much at all in client communication. And I have a couple of core people who do that, like solely as their job, which is like an actual job, like a contractor can't do that, especially when we have pretty, like, I don't wanna use the word strict, but like high expectations around client communication and getting back to our clients quickly.
Mm-hmm . And so that was one of those things where I came to you. I'm like, I, I need to have control over this. and so it had to be an employee position because I couldn't enforce anything like that with a contractor. Right. So that was one of the main things that, that pushed me over the edge and obviously like had to for compliance sake, and just for peace of mind for me.
And the other thing was more on that peace of mind, part of it, which was. Oh, man, this person is essential to my business. Being able to function and be sustainable and work. And like, if they decided tomorrow, like, oh no, I'm like taking on this other client. So I can only like work for you. Like, you know, half as many hours, like that would not work for me.
Right. and I wanted them to know that they were valued and that they were an integral part of this team and that I wanted them to be like on the team, like actually on the team working just for this, this company. and so that's what, what pulled us over and we brought on three employees that you helped me bring on three employees.
And now we have like four more that we're gonna be bringing on in the next, like, you know, 30 to 90 days, whatever that's gonna be like when this recording comes out. and it is, it's a total I'd love for you to talk a little bit about like the mindset shift on having employees versus having contractors.
Because for me, it's. A really cool experience because it feels like this whole other layer of responsibility as a business owner that I didn't have
[00:16:04] Kira: before. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I'm probably like the worst salesperson in the world because I've had client I've been in sales before, first of all. So I've had clients that I've sold into things and then they weren't ready.
So especially back when I first started my business, it's like, you know, we're trying to make sales. Like my first, second, third client, I was like there to push them and I knew I could see the potential and all that. And now I'm like, well, it's just depends on like, what if you're ready to vibe or not? You know, like, it's like very much, like you kind of just have to be ready because this is a big, it's it.
It's worth it a hundred percent. And when you bring someone on as an employee, or even when you are just responsible for the income of another person in a way that is committed, and you're also putting energy into developing them, it is a big energy shift in that you aren't checking tasks off on click up barasana every day.
But instead you're showing up for your team as a human person, and whether that's on slack or a couple voice memos, it definitely gets easier over time for your listeners that are kind of like, oh, screw that. Like I'm tired enough. it's definitely something that gets easier to manage and lead. And you know, when you have experience like you do it definitely doesn't feel quite so crazy, but you are taking on this big.
Responsibility. And especially in our society and in capitalism and all that in general, we're kind of ruled by our work. Like we identify with how we work. We identify with our jobs that we do, we identify with the impact that we're making. So creating a space where people that are working for us are on our same page with impact, but also.
We wanna give our employees a reason to motivate themselves every day, too. Like, how are they showing up for our clients? That's really motivating to them. Like they're in the right position, they're doing the right thing. They're pushing the company forward while also meeting their own personal goals.
Like those are all like really high level thinking and kind of unselfish ways to run a business, which can feel like what the heck? Like I'm I, when you get to the point where you have to hire a team, it's like, I'm freaking tired, dude. That's why I'm trying to hire a team. So it's can be really hard to be like, well, there's this other layer of responsibility that you gotta be ready to like show up for them in a lot of new ways and have uncomfortable conversations.
And sometimes like, Sort of have conversations that kind of suck like that end in tears or that hurt people's feelings or, you know, whatever, because we do have to make sure the business is sustainable in order to meet everyone's needs in the first place. And I think, especially in our industry or in any remote team or women run team, we come to this with experience and some of those experiences are traumatic or we've had bad bosses.
And so we're also like trying not to emulate that at the same time that we're trying to make money for our business. And then there's the whole like self-worth element where like, well, like how is it that people work for me? And I didn't think it would be a big deal for me considering I've been running teams for over 10 years, but I mean, I had had it too when I hired my first employee.
It, I waited too long. I was underwater. I almost like burned out at like my company, my company in general, that I run by myself and. By the time I got to that point, it is a big shift. And then hiring that second employee, like it's another shift in the way that you're thinking. So it can be just like really overwhelming when you're already in a place where by nature, you need help.
That's why you're hiring in the first place. So I think that that mindset it's just mostly. I personally get a lot of comfort out of like, well, we don't really have a choice. Like you wanna have a business, like we have to follow the same laws and it's totally worth it. It just gotta get over this like icky bumpy like road, I guess, to get there and get it sorted out.
But that's kind of the point is that we give you the foundation. So then you can understand it. You can stand up for it. You can represent your company in the way that you want to. You can create a culture in a real and intentional way, and it doesn't feel as overwhelming as trying to do it all on your own while you're also trying to figure out how to keep your head above water while you're going through this massive change.
I mean, now that I'm talking about it, I'm like, is it like the business equivalent of having a baby? But I mean, that's just cuz I'm like supposed to be doing that soon. So
[00:20:35] Jordan: oh man. Okay. Well that's a rabbit hole. Maybe we won't touch today, on having a baby, but we could definitely do an episode about that. so. A couple things. One is, I think it's so interesting that we have like this really cool synergy in what we do. because obviously like I've hired you to help me build my business and bring on employees.
and you specifically serve people who are in that place where they need to bring on employees, like long term for what they do, which is my business. But I specifically serve people who are in a place where they don't necessarily need or have the bandwidth to bring on employees. And so we can come in and fulfill a lot of the things that they, that they need to get done in their business without having to worry about this HR side of things, without having to worry about employees or managing a bunch of contractors, which, you know, I know I'm biased cuz I love what I do, but I think it's like just epically cool that we can give people a access to a full team.
[00:21:31] Jordan: Without them having to do any of the management of it, right? Yeah. So we're on like these two opposite sides of the spectrum and I think compliment each other very well in what we, what we do and what we offer and who we serve, which is so cool. And I think, you know, some of the, some of our clients will always only need us because of their business model and, and how like their goals and their long term vision for what they're doing for their business.
They can always just have us doing their ops. Whereas some people will come to us and we're kind of like a, like a intermediary solution to them as they grow until they get to a point where they need to bring on employees, at least for some positions, you know, I think, yeah, some, some of our clients will completely outgrow us and others will always have us as kind of like a compliment to having employees.
And, and we have clients in all of these different situations, which I, which I just think is so cool. the one thing I'll mention too on. You on that, like specifically as it relates to me is I have, I think a very different approach and vision for my business than maybe some folks do in this space. and, and compared to some of my clients who wanna run a really lean, highly profitable, more like it's more like a solo entrepreneur structure, but with a team.
And I think a lot of our clients come to us and that's like, what they're really looking for, which is fantastic. And I think that's a great model for, for a lot of like coaches and things like that. For me, I mean, I'm planning on building a multiple million dollar plus business over the next years. My structure and my vision requires employees and, and it will always be the case.
And that side of the business will continue to grow because of, again, my offers and my long term vision for my business. And so a lot of it is just comes down to, I think, like what you're actually trying to build and what you're trying to grow. and I don't really know if I have a point on that. I just think it's really cool that there's so many different ways that you can kind of approach this in, in this specific space that we're in of online business.
[00:23:44] Kira: Yeah. And I think it's really interesting too, because when we first met, I was like, oh, well, Jordan's illegal. Like, whatever she's doing is illegal. like, and then we talked about it and a couple times, and it was like, oh no, I think it's. It's not that way at all, because of the way that you have things structured.
And like you said, you know, once you grow to a certain point in order to provide the services you do that are disconnected enough from your clients and you have these solid boundaries and you're creating a lot of productivity, but without having to require all that energy exchange from the CEOs of those companies, you have to kind of bear the burden of, of managing and maintaining that team in order to keep up the quality of, of having different contractors in place, working on different business models.
So I think in certain circumstances, like you might meet with clients and be like, I just, you know, we can help you with this part of things, but at a certain point, like, The boundaries probably would get, we haven't talked about this, but I'm assuming like boundaries might start to get a little pushed and you're like, yeah, you probably need someone in like a D like an operations manager that's in that role, still working with us, but that can fulfill this need that the CEO's having.
Well, maybe they're coming up with new offers. That is a little different from how they're gonna deliver with the help of your team, you know, stuff like that. And I think it's fine to experiment with lots of stuff. Like once you get to a point where, you know, you have to have employees, like you have to do the groundwork and the foundational work, if you can't afford it, then you shouldn't be hiring employees.
at the end of the day, like we do wanna make sure that we. Afford to set a foundation that employees can thrive in and thrive under. Otherwise it will come back and bite us in the butt. but realistically, most people that hire us are pay and full clients that are like, yep, let's do it. You know, at the end of the day, like they're not ready yet.
[00:25:34] Kira: And I think that that's the coolest thing about the way that your business is structured is that. Whatever way people wanna go. We, they don't have to hold back their growth or their scaling, especially women that have a hard time getting support in more than just business, but especially entrepreneurial women.
There's a lot of moms, there's a lot of caretakers. There's a lot of people that have side hustles. And unfortunately like we can't have, you must have an employee be a barrier to entry or a barrier to growth for women business owners. And so it's really cool that you are able to speak to that side of things.
That's gonna keep people going and growing without necessarily having to jump into the deep end of this big change. And I do think that eventually people will get there, but realistically. You don't have to, like, you don't have to grow to a multimillion dollar business. Like you're allowed to have a business that supports your lifestyle, gives you freedom and flexibility meets your needs.
And lets you have a creative outlet without necessarily having to shoot for the next six figure month or whatever it is. Like those are all things that can be delivered through a business like yours or through a traditional model with a small team of employees. It just depends on like how you wanna set things up.
And at the end of the day, If, what you're getting from contractors, isn't meeting the needs of the business, then you have to think about what does my business really need. And we have to be able to put our feelings aside a little bit about any trauma or anything that we're bringing with us, cuz employees can sound scary.
I know compliance is a big, like kind of pain point for you in a sense you were like, I don't even know what the heck that is. And that's why all of our referrals come from lawyers and accountants because they're like, oh, okay, here's your contract. Now go talk to Kira cuz I don't wanna touch any of that.
You know? Cause it's a very niche area of things and that's kinda awesome and cool because most people think. They have to go to a lawyer to get going with their employees. And then immediately they're like, here's Kira . She will actually help you with this . So I think it's cool that you give people a chance to try different ways, try different business models, try different ways to fulfill their offers and even try different ways to be a CEO, cuz being a CEO that partners with you is a totally different feeling than being a CEO.
That's running a team of five people. So like it's, it's nice and you don't have to marry it. You know, you can change your mind. Yeah. You can go backwards and go forwards. Like it's not forever. I think it's
[00:27:58] Jordan: awesome. Well, thank you. And I didn't mean for this to be just like a sales commercial for what I do and for what you do, but, but here we go.
Let's keep going with it. so the, the one thing that, that, and, and cuz I agree. I think some folks. do need an employee, especially for like op stuff or like, you know, this OBM thing ever since I met you and we've talked about this stuff, I'm like, how can an OBM even be a thing then? Because like, as far as compliance stuff goes, like, that feels weird.
Now that I know some of these things, I'm like, how are people working in businesses, like on a day to day basis? And like, they're not anyway, like maybe we won't touch that. But, one thing that I've, learned as my business has evolved and, you know, , when I started, I was billing what I do as like COO and team, like, bring me on as your COO and you get access to my team as well.
And I've, I've really gotten away from that language because I find that sometimes it does attract people who are actually looking for a COO mm-hmm and, , which is great. And I can, I can, I can give that perspective on things mm-hmm and I can offer you insight as a COO. And that's still what I do for all of my, clients, especially like on the mastermind side of things is like, you're getting access to a COO brain mm-hmm , which you desperately need.
Like almost everyone I in this space needs that. Yeah. but I'm not working in your business every day. Like that's not what I do. Mm-hmm and for people who need that, cuz this has happened. They come, they get on the sales call with me and they're like telling me all the things I'm like, you're describing an employee you need an employee because you're wanting someone to do things every single day in your business.
Like you're describing something that's gonna take 20 to 40 hours a week. Like we can't do that. That's not what we do. Yeah. What we do is give you access to every potential. Expertise that you would need in an online business. You need copywriting, you need marketing, you need tech, you need whatever social media, graphic design, like we can do all of that.
And it saves you from having to hire 10 different contractors. because I have done that. That is like a big piece of what I do on the daily is team management, finding great team members. Like since we do grow very fast, like a big part of my job is finding and bringing on new people so that we can continue to serve more clients.
And that in and of itself is like practically a full time job. yeah. So anyway, like just hire me, everybody just
[00:30:25] Kira: hire me. I mean, it it's true when we talk it's it seems like almost every time we talk it's like, oh, I just said, I was just chatting with this girl. Great skill set. Gonna totally use her in my business for this specific, like, you're just like sourcing this talent that also, I think the beauty of the way that you do things in.
And kind of how I sort of like understand it at being on the back end is that it's just the communication and the camaraderie between your team helps to make sure that the tasks are getting done at a super high quality. And then you and your mastermind are kind of that collaboration piece that we encourage people to bring internally because of intellectual property and stuff like that.
So I think it's really unique and cool how you're building it out and it's super different than what I originally thought. which is why I can like stand behind you and be like, we're all legal. also, there's this, the thing about the OBM that like, to your point, it's so interesting because I've talked to.
It's it's, it's kind of funny cuz we think we're gonna talk crap on OBM's but really our OBM the OBM's that I know are like, yeah, these people need to stop treating me. Like I'm their COO, like I'm here to like make sure the wheels turn, I like to make sure things are moving, there's this moment of like I don't wanna be treated that way either. Like I have OBMs that follow me just to make sure that they are being treated fairly and their desire to have a piece of a bunch of different businesses and variety within.
Within their own business structure. And like, that's really not that cohesive with people that actually need an operations person on their team to collaborate with, to brainstorm, with, to build with, you know, those, the strategy piece, the, the creativity, like that is all very internal. Like we can talk to our friends all day and our business friends and our mastermind friends and stuff like that.
But they don't work for us and that's kind of the beauty of collaborating with them. So there's another level that comes from an internal person where they're pushing things forward for your business when you're, you're not even realizing that they're seeing things in a different way, and they're seeing a new perspective and they're seeing things on the day to day and a lot of the OBMs that I talk to are like, yeah, can you tell my client this?
Like they need to hire an operations person. Like they still need me to do my OBM thing because their operations person's gonna have full plate. and like, can you let them know? Because I feel like it's getting harder for the OBMs even to be able to put up that wall in those boundaries because of the expectations of the online business.
it's I think we just do need a lot more than we think we do. Like when I'm like, I just need a copywriter and then 20 minutes later, I'm like putting up an ad for a marketing assistant, you know, it's like, we need more help than we do
[00:33:17] Jordan: exactly. Because what copy
[00:33:18] Kira: do you need? Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's
[00:33:21] Jordan: so many layers to this and, and unfortunately for everyone involved, we as business owners have just insanely high unrealistic expectations for what a VA or an OBM can do.
And that's why a lot of people end up coming to me because they're like, oh man, I hired an OBM and I, I wasn't getting all this, this, this, and this. I'm like, yeah, because one person can't do that for you. That's not possible. Or they hire a VA and they're like, but I still have to spend all this time trying to like, figure out what they need to be doing.
Yeah. exactly. Someone's gotta figure that out. And, and so that is. Again, man, I'm, I'm gonna have to title this. Like, why you should work with me. I'm sorry. but hopefully this is important because it is like, it is critical and, and I don't feel like enough people are talking about realistically, what do these different types of positions do?
And, again, that's why people come to me because like we do all of that. Like we do the strategy, we, we do the implementation, you get someone who can bounce ideas off of like every single day as your point of contact. but the other thing I wanna talk about, cuz I wanna ran about it for like a second and I'm curious your opinion and you may not have one and that's okay.
But. I have like this big pet peeve with like monthly retainers, that aren't based on hours. And I think there's a lot of people in the online space, especially who are training, like VAs and OBMs and like different folks like that who are saying things like don't base it on hours, like base it on just like scope of work or like leave it open.
And then like, I, I think that is a terrible model and, and I could be wrong and for, for other people, but for me, the one time I did that at the very beginning of my business, I was like, oh, okay, this is the monthly price. And you know, we're not gonna set specific hours on it. talk about a nightmare.
They ended up like way overusing me and I lost money because I was spending so much time. It was like, there was never a good place to draw a line on what, what should be included in the monthly retainer and what shouldn't mm-hmm and I think hours. Or like a fabulous way to go because it's very black and white.
It's like, oh, well you're over your hours. so you wanna buy more? Or you wanna pause on what we're doing this month? It there's not as much of a need to be good at holding boundaries because that's freaking hard. Yeah. so I don't know. I don't know if this really even relates to what we're talking about, but I just, that came to my mind and I, I really
[00:35:52] Kira: dislike that model.
Yeah. I mean, it's, there's a lot of parallels with that. And even how you're deciding what type of employee you need, because we have multiple ways that you can go where they could be hourly or full time or part-time, or they could be exempt or non-exempt or whatever. And I think that this is a really great example of why we, I personally like to start out, even though I'm a very laid back person, I'm really understanding and flexible.
And as a boss, I. Have been doing this all for a long time. Like I can approach things in a really confident way cuz I know that if I have to have a tough conversation, I definitely will. Cuz I can read those. It's been a while, you know, but I still set up my team in a way that is. Building a structure into their days or their weeks so that I know exactly what I can expect so that we can reduce the times that we're having those conversations.
So for me, I feel like if you get to a place in your business where you're like, I'd like to control that they're working during these hours, or, you know, whatever the case may be, then I think that's just a sure sign that you need an employee. And that often comes with, I've got a time crunch. Like I've got some kids to deal with.
I have another job, whatever the case may be. You, it might seem counterintuitive, but like if you've got a lot going on having an employee that you can tell when they're gonna be working and when they're overlapping with you and when they're working with you, that's gonna be a huge game changer for the way that you're going to approach the functionality and productivity of your business.
So same with you. Like there. It's kind of a shortcut in a sense, because the more structured you are, the less you have to reinforce boundaries over and over again. Or you have to, there's a lot of resentment that builds up. If you feel that you're being taken advantage of in a business, people are really complicated.
It's not super black and white. So if we can make things really black and white, while maintaining our compliance, then we can be whatever kind of manager we wanna be to get from a to B. So just to your point, I love when we can measure things by hours, because it also creates a work environment where people can be done.
Yeah. Like just the same way that your contractors are like, yeah. That's that like, it's great for the business owner, they know their budget. We all love to know the, where the money's going, stuff like that. It's great for your contractors because it can help you with your margins. It's also great for you that you don't have to be like up people's butt every other day.
And then with, if you have employees, it's the same thing. Like I'm gonna let my policies, I'm gonna let my standards, the hours that I'm setting, do their thing in the background so that we can stay compliant so that I can show up and lead them instead of just like chasing around when are you gonna be clocking in or whatever.
So it's kind of funny cuz the more, the joke I make is that the more like cool laid back confident and like excited you are about being a leader usually means that your policies have to be way more strict because then you can show up as yourself and let your policies do the thing, you know? And like you just kind of set up that foundation and no matter who you're managing or what you're managing, the more structure that you can have, that's built in.
We'll also allow you to be more flexible when, and if the time comes. So I always just tell everybody, like, we go really black and white with like, when we're showing up to work, when we're showing up for clients like that is all black and white. If you're one minute late, that doesn't work for me, things like that.
Because if there is something that happens, I'm confident that everything else is like exactly where it needs to be showing up as it needs to being done when it needs to. So I know I can make those accommodations when the team actually needs it. If somebody loses a family member, if somebody gets sick, if somebody's kid is sick, a nanny's sick, you know, whatever the case may be.
If you have a structure that is mostly just keeping things running in the back end, you don't have to manage it day to day, and you can be a really flexible and forgiving boss because it's all just kind of happening. Same with serving your clients. You can be way cooler for your clients. If your boundaries are set up, the conversations you're having with your clients are less about, well, why did it take you so long to do this and more about like, how can we really maximize this next time?
So they're gonna get more for their money too. Somebody has to manage where the energy's going. And when I think it's interesting because the business owners that you work with, you're managing that. And the business owners we work with, we're teaching them how to manage it. So I'm not a hundred percent sure how you're doing all the managing for your own business and all the managing for all the others.
But I guess that's where the employees come in, cuz that is all very hard. Great job, Jordan.
[00:40:18] Jordan: oh, well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So one thing I wanna, I wanna dive into a little bit, because you mentioned earlier is around difficult conversations. And I have found that managing this large of a team has been one of the greatest opportunities for me to grow as a person, as a leader, as business owner, whatever.
because I've been forced to have difficult conversations. And, I think I've gotten better at them over time. Yeah. And I'm, I'm very fortunate that I haven't had to have that many, right. Like I have been insanely lucky with my team and I just haven't had to do that a lot, but I have had to have some, and I know for a fact that other business owners have dealt with this both with, with, with clients, which, you know, we've talked about in other episodes, but then specifically with employees, with contractors and, One of my clients recently have a couple who have kind of dealt with some things around this, but one in particular, I talked to a couple weeks ago because she's she's, she was feeling kind of like some concern around an employee.
[00:41:27] Jordan: Actually. I can't even remember if it was an employer or a contractor who she was like, I don't know if they're gonna stick around long term. And that's like really scary because they're an integral part of my business. And how can I have a conversation with that? Or like, you know, they're taking longer to do things.
What do I say to them? and I would love to get your opinion because my suggestion and how I have typically approached things in the past has been less around, especially for contractors, I'll say, has been framed more around. Future expectations. And we're evolving is how I kind of frame things versus, Hey, this is like the six things that you've done that I didn't like, or that have like, missed the mark as far as my expectations go.
Like, I really like to approach things, in terms of, Hey look, okay, we're bringing on these new people. We're trying to figure out how we can do things better for our clients. And we can be more efficient and more effective. And moving forward, this is kind of like the, the expectations that I'm gonna be like putting out there for everyone.
These are, you know, I, I wanna make sure we're getting back to clients within 24 hours. I wanna make sure we're doing this. Like. What do you think about that? Do you think that's gonna be possible for you to do, and mm-hmm, more framing it in terms of, this is a thing that's, that's changing and evolving, not that mm.
You kind of screwed up yeah. Yeah. So curious what you think about
[00:42:54] Kira: that approach? Yeah. I mean, especially with contractors, I think the biggest thing is contractors are easy. Come easy, go. So at the end of the day, as much as we may not wanna hear that it is still the amount of energy that I guess in that exchange, we want to make sure that we're always prioritizing ourself because they have their own business and we have ours.
So in those conversations, it's whatever is going to help you get to a place where you can get your point across and make sure your business is getting what it needs from that business. So it's very transactional, like transactional leadership primarily. I know that we do th tend to make things a little harder on ourselves because we.
Maybe having relationships with contractors that extend further than what feels transactional and things like that, which I personally don't like to dig into too much, just because I think that there's a lot more benefit from enriching the culture of our internal team. So I'd like to put all my energy towards those really difficult conversations.
So generally when it comes to contractors, you set the groundwork with the contracts, you can always refer back to what the original agreements were. I love the approach that you take and everyone's is gonna be different. You may have like a super, super shy business owner that you're dealing with that has to go deal with this contractor that is gonna feel really weird about the confrontation.
And they may have to tell the contractor, like I have some concerns and I may, I'm gonna send you an email, cuz it'll be a little bit easier for me to get this all out on paper, but let's talk about it after, like, if you don't mind, like. Read through it, think about it. And then let's meet tomorrow for just 10, 15 minutes to make sure we're on the same page so we can move forward.
as a rule of thumb, if you can end every performance based conversation, regardless of it's contractor or an employee with a way for that's framed in, how am I gonna support you to get to our objective? Then usually the conversations are gonna end a little bit easier. and it's gonna feel more collaborative and they're gonna feel supported.
[00:44:52] Kira: And that is our job as leaders to push things forward, but be a support system for our team. That's why it's so fricking hard, cuz we're tired, but it's worth it. but those difficult conversations that you have to have with people are gonna happen regardless of. If they're your friend, your partner, your employee, like whatever the case may be.
So the more you do them, the better you're gonna get at them. And the harder it is, the more worth it, it is. So like I had another, a situation with a employee that I care deeply about. That's worked for me for years and we had a really tough conversation within the last couple weeks that I never thought I'd be able to be as blunt and honest as, as we got to in the conversation.
And of course there were tears and you know, all that, but at the end of the day, she was really grateful that I could be honest with her and make sure that she understood what she needed to do in order to stay. With our team. And it wasn't a situation where she was like, well, I gotta leave now because you're rude.
It was like, oh crap. I really wanna work in a place where I can , make mistakes and be supported, but also be held accountable and be pushed to grow, to be better at the end of the day. Like that is probably the hardest conversation I've ever had in management just happened two weeks ago.
And it also was probably the most worth it, the results have been bumpy, but a hundred percent worth it. There's those I'm gonna think about that conversation and that experience for a really long time, I learned 50 lessons in a day, you know, there's like all these major things. So that's why I think that all of our attention and energy should go to how we're managing our internal relationships versus how we're managing agencies and contractors that we work with.
Cuz that depth should be building towards the nucleus and culture of our business. Cuz that conversation whether or not. Anyone else on my team knew about it, is shaping the culture of what it's like to work here because that person, our job as a leader is not just to lead it's to create new leaders.
So I hope that she goes and manages her section of the team. She has 20 direct reports in a sense that is going to reflect kindness and compassion, but productivity and prioritizing the, the wellbeing of the business in the same way that I was able to approach her, regardless of how many days I didn't sleep thinking about it.
You know? And so I feel like that's kind of the energy of you're taking this huge, like you Jordan are taking this huge amount of energy off of your CEO so that they can be really in their zone of genius and you're managing your contractors and you're managing the people within your team. And you're taking on that like huge responsibility.
And if you are. You know that like the really deep and meaningful conversations that you're having and the most difficult conversations are probably gonna be people that are on your internal team, that you're investing time, energy, and effort into. And they're always gonna be the ones that are the most worth it.
Sometimes it's in a relationship the relationship's gonna grow and deepen. And sometimes it's because your business is just gonna do better as a result of that conversation. And that is also super high value. Like we're business people. Like we like people we're nice, blah, blah. But like also we make money.
So like we're not gonna discount that sometimes profit can be the way that we're rewarded for having these tough moments and these Le learning experiences and these like stretching our leader, leadership muscles a little bit more.
[00:48:08] Jordan: Yeah, for sure. And I have had several experiences over the last few weeks in different groups than I'm in hearing people talk about like having people on their team, whether contractors are employees or whatever, who like aren't really performing and like struggling with telling them that I must have some kind of like weird past experience that has made me like have zero tolerance for that.
But I, I can't, I, I personally can't imagine. Keeping someone on my team who's not performing like that just boggles my mind. And I think maybe it's because you, you talked about corporate at the beginning. I have like no experience with corporate, which I know a lot of people in this online space, you know, come here from corporate.
I came from non-profit world mm-hmm , which is very different mm-hmm because what I saw was a lot of that I worked in maybe three or four different nonprofits, since I, you know, graduated college and. Saw so much waste and so much inefficiency and so much like we're a family, not a company. And I just like, don't resonate with that.
I'm like, that's gross. Like you're not holding boundaries. No one's being effective. Like you're just keeping people around because they're there, but they're not really actually being efficient or getting anything done like that irked the absolute hell out of me coming through nonprofit. And it totally burned me.
Like I was just like, I feel like working in the nonprofit, world's making me a worse person. Like it's making me less effective by being around people who have low expectations. And I, God, I hope no one like that I used to work with is listening to this because it's just a different mindset. It's like a different mindset.
It's a different way of doing business. There wasn't a big focus on like being profitable and that's just not how I run things. Like I'm trying to be extremely profitable so that I can have a ton of employees who are rewarded for doing amazing work. And we're all fulfilling this like much larger vision of who we're helping and we're helping other people grow businesses like this.
This to me, to me, feels like this really cool domino effect that we're having on like women in general in the world, like growing businesses. Yeah. And that's such a core piece of what we do. And I think it's part of why we have a really loyal team who are all very committed to doing amazing work mm-hmm
And so the thought of having someone on my team who. not doing that. I'm like, well, that wouldn't, that wouldn't last for like a day. Like we would have a conversation about that, like that. And, and I, you mentioned earlier too, like, oh, well, I brought them on as a contractor and that I know you've encouraged me not to do that.
And like bring people on as employees and cuz the transition from contractor to employee can be difficult, but I am. So particular about who I bring on my team mm-hmm and bringing someone on as a contractor to me, feels like such an easy way to figure out how are you actually gonna perform mm-hmm and I can test them on a lot of different things and see, oh man, I want them on the team full time.
Now mm-hmm because they've shown me their work ethic and like how they do things and their communication style. And it just, I don't know, for me, it feels like a safety net to have someone as a contractor. Yeah. And then to decide, yep. You're a good fit here. Let's
[00:51:38] Kira: go. Yeah. And that is definitely a strategy.
I mean, I know that the, the biggest thing I would caution with that is that a lot of people that are really high level talent looking for long term employment would never do that. Like if an, like, if you are looking for an employee, like, for example, if I were looking for a new job and I saw it was like contract for 30 days or something, like, I might be like the best fricking fit for that job ever, but I'd be like, oh, well, no, Because like, I wanna commit, like once I start, I wanna be in it.
And so I think that's what I would just caution against is that when you're looking for those candidates, like that's a hundred, like it's kind of just a paid test project that goes on for a while. so at the end of the day, like if you're really treating it and setting up expectations in order to make that successful and like, talk about that long term commitment in the, in the hiring and expectations process, then it'll be like, it'd be a totally different situation than.
where we may have a contractor that works for us for a while, and then they might want a new level of autonomy, or they have a, they wanna learn more through us or they wanna become an employee and be more committed. But then there really isn't a change in the behaviors to match the effort that we're bringing them in as an employee.
Like that's the cautionary tale, I guess. but there's a lot of talent out there that has nothing to do with the online space. That would absolutely Excel. And they're not looking for jobs like that. They're not looking for jobs on our websites. Like they're looking for jobs on indeed and LinkedIn. And so there is just an untapped potential, especially in the labor market, because it is really competitive, but there's a lot of talent out there that's open to change.
So that's a whole other conversation with hiring and recruiting and all that good stuff. But to your point, having people on your team that are underperforming. is it's gonna be a preference. You know, some CEOs are gonna be way cool with having somebody start entry level and like pouring a lot of time, energy and effort into them.
Some are gonna want them to show up depending on the level of the role. They want them to show up like a hundred percent the first day. they may be paying them that way as well. And so it's like, look, you're not getting paid minimum wage. Like you, you said you could do this job. Like you gotta show up and do it.
and that can also be how you decide to build your culture. There's been a lot of clients that we have that build into their culture that like milking the clock or, you know, doing hourly work and like taking a bunch of time or like having your camera off in meetings or, you know, not being focused or, you know, what is completely unacceptable because everything else is flexible.
[00:54:07] Kira: So like the vibe is when you're showing up, you're a hundred percent and so different people are gonna value different things when it comes to their employees and how they're producing and what they're. What they're spending their time doing and all of that good stuff. And that's kind of the magic of recruiting is that you can find the right fit based on what you want your culture to feel like.
wasteful performance is a reflection of the CEO. not to like call out anybody that was talking about this, but you know, like a huge part of our process. And we only did the V I P day. So it was only a month, but a huge part of our process is setting up the standards in which you're going to be evaluating performance and the metrics that they're hitting and things like that.
[00:54:48] Kira: So that happens before they're hired. If an employer has to go back and set those standards, and this is the first time the employees ever heard of it, then the employer has to kind of take that on as like, I may not have been getting my money's worth, cuz I didn't actually put in the groundwork to make sure that I was
[00:55:04] Jordan: setting up the expectations that needed to be set.
[00:55:07] Kira: So I think that's a big deal in online business is that when I hear people that are like, I just wanna hire somebody and I'm just gonna post an ad and, you know, whatever. Then I just often see people that are like, yeah, I, I listen to you or I get a message. I listen to you on a podcast and I'm definitely hiring an internal marketing manager.
Now I put out the job posting and it's like, oh, cool. Like, what else did you do? It's like, did you figure out their KPIs? Did you put together a training schedule? Did you make sure that your policies were compliant? Did you figure out what your values are internally? Like how are you gonna onboard them?
Do you have a payroll system? Do you know about taxes? Have you heard of workers comp? I mean, I can go on forever. So it's like, I want people to hire people. I want them to set themselves up for success and a performance issue is a management issue, not an employee issue. And I love that as a, as an employer, because that means we actually do have control over how our people are performing and we can take accountability for it.
It doesn't have to be like a right. Oh no, you're not doing good. How did this happen? Like, it can actually like some, you know, people always, there's always gonna be that, but most of the time it's. Oh, no, you're not doing good. What can I do to fix it? And that is so much more empowering and it's gonna keep women in business and our employees with us longer.
If we have that mindset, not to give you like a four hour explanation about this, but performance management is like my favorite thing. If I could get paid all day to do people's performance reviews, I would a hundred percent do it. Sit down with the CEO for an hour. Talk about what they want outta them.
Make a performance review, talk to the employee. Chefs kiss. Amazing love to do it would do it 12 hours a day. . That's awesome. I just think it's fun. That's awesome. I love getting that like yeah, that like getting to the root of it and like finding how to get the best out of this person and it's gonna be different for everyone.
And I mean, that's why we're in people, ops in HR. Cause I just think people are like so interesting. I'm like always watching what they're doing.
[00:57:00] Jordan: yeah, that is, that is cool. And I, I don't feel the same way. Mm-hmm about performance reviews specifically, but what I love is, is really, like you said, I, I don't, and I hadn't ever like thought about this in, in these terms before, but like talent acquisition, figuring out how a specific person can really be an asset to our team and our clients.
It's like such a fun thing for me to do. Yeah. And one of my. absolute favorite people on my team started doing like something totally different that she's doing now. And she's evolved and evolved in and has, has almost had, I would say like three or four different like informal job descriptions. I mean, now that she's an employee, she has an actual job description.
Mm-hmm as she evolved as a contractor from when she came on, I mean, it's like night and day and, and honestly, I wish I could go back and kind of like, like document what, what was it that I saw in her? And like, why did I bring her on? But I knew, I just, I remember knowing like, oh man, she, she needs to be here.
Mm-hmm and I don't exactly know how this is gonna like work out long term. Yeah. But I know for a fact that she needs to be here and I think that's a really fun and cool thing that, I mean, I, I like the flexibility of being able to do that with my team. Yeah. And like constantly optimize. That's just like my personality, but yeah.
I
[00:58:25] Kira: think it's super fun. Yeah. And that's, that's kind of like. The way that I've done it as well. Like what, in online business, like, we're not trying to tell people that this has to be your expectations forever. Like Kylie, who is such an integral part of my business and has been with me for almost a year.
Now, she started out as like a very entry level role. Like she didn't even apply. I had like 200 applicants. She didn't even apply the normal way. She just wrote me a message and was like, I got this alert on indeed. And I have to work for your company. I'm the perfect fit, but I'm on vacation. Please don't hire someone yet, like out of 200 applicants.
So, so hard to choose at the end of the day. Like it just really stuck out and then it was, you can't explain it. And everybody's different, which is why I love when people take a lot of accountability like you do for finding the talent that's right for their team. There, her job has changed. What four times in the last, like the first three months of this year was all of our income from last year.
So like obviously like Q4 of last year versus Q1 of this year, her job is completely different and she was hired not with the expectation of, this is what your job looks like forever. But with the expectation of like, this is not what your job looks like forever. This is what I need right now. And are you cool with growing and changing and developing and having a voice and evolving as my company does.
And that is the expectation that was set. So I don't want people to shy away and be like, oh, well I did write a job ad. And I posted it and I like, I have Gusto or whatever. And it's like, that's great. And like, I'm happy that you're doing that. I'd much rather have you do that. But also. Remember that there are more things and there's more depth that can be done once you hit those roadblocks.
Don't give up because that first person didn't work out one in three hires. Don't work out regardless of how they're recruited. So at the end of the day, yeah. And that's, that's awful. It sounds really bad. And it's kind of cool because people are looking for the right fit. So, and that's that, that statistic actually, hasn't changed with the great resignation over the last year.
And it's always been that way. So I think it's cool. Like we wanna leave a little bit of freedom in there. Like we never wanna hold onto people too tightly, or hold onto the thought of what somebody's gonna turn into too tightly, cuz then it makes them Fe you feel that energy and they don't actually get to expand and grow into who they will best be serving your company or someone else.
Like my goal is never to keep someone around forever, although that is much better for my margins. but it's to keep someone around until they decide that they wanna try something else. And then I'll always. Be have like, they'll always be in my DMS and we'll always have a relationship and I'll be, you know, send them a wedding gift.
And, you know, I want things to end in a positive way, cuz there's so much toxic toxicity in workplaces that if that, if your goal is that it ends well, then your goal is to keep the workplace feeling good. Even when it is time for someone to leave and it prioritizes their experience. Yeah. Which ends up keeping them around longer.
So you don't even really have to worry about it. So, I mean, in, in regards to what you mentioned earlier with friends and mastermind sisters or whatever, we call these people that we get coached with or like whoever we're talking to, when they're having these issues with performance and having to have those tough conversations, I would just like flip it on its head and be like, just cuz it doesn't work out.
Or cuz you had to have a tough conversation. Like don't give up like flex the muscles, try it out like this. Isn't gonna follow you till your grave. Like you're allowed to make mistakes. Like you're allowed to. Take a step back and think about the possibilities for what it could look like next time. and just try to get every ounce of experience you can out of every situation that you're given.
Because every time we are gifted with the opportunity to have a tough conversation or to manage someone or step into leadership, it's not something that happens all the time. So like grab it and run with it. Cuz those lessons, aren't just something you can read in a book like you have to experience them in order to continue to get better at them.
[01:02:13] Jordan: oh, for sure. And like, just to like put a concrete example, point on this, one of the really difficult conversations that I had to have with a past contractor, actually resulted in me developing my values, which I didn't ever have, you know, they're in your head and like people talk about values and whatever.
I didn't even really know what they actually were until I was like, man, something is just not feeling right with this person in the way that they're doing things. And once I started kind of thinking about it, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have to have a conversation with them. I'm gonna get on a call with them.
[01:02:46] Jordan: And I jotted down a couple of notes and then after the conversation, I was like, oh shit. I just wrote out my values. for like how I expect people on my team to show up how I expect for us to deliver what we do to our clients. And I just hadn't ever put pen to paper mm-hmm . And so even though it was like it, the, the conversation I actually went fairly well and long term, that person.
Actually didn't work out. and that's, that's only, that's like the only person that I've had to part ways with as far as like team goes wow. And have conversations like that with. but it was such a great experience and I'm so glad that I had to have those conversations. And even though it didn't work out, I did, I learned so much.
And now when I like my values are on, you know, the page, when you go to apply to work with us, mm-hmm, like it's spelled out right there. I don't have to wait until you're on to have a conversation with you. And then I know to kind of like continually bring those up to everyone who's on the team. Like just as a reminder, transparency, super important.
Like I'm always kind of putting out invitations to people and to the team to provide feedback and provide insight and suggestions because that's one of our values and I didn't know that. Yeah. originally, and so just to, I guess, Support your point. Yeah. I mean, all those lessons is gonna be lessons learned.
Yeah.
[01:04:09] Kira: It's really crazy to think about too. Cuz we, I hear this, I hear so much bad advice and like I, most of the time I'm like, there is no bad advice. Like it's just, it evolves over time. I'm sure. In two years I'm gonna be like, why did I say that? but , or I had a totally different experience now or, you know, whatever.
I mean, I feel I've been in this game long enough that I probably have already done all that, but, or most of it, but I feel like there's a little bit of a, I like, I often hear people talk about the first thing you do with your bus businesses. You figure out what your mission, vision, and values are. And it's like, but like, let it ride, like it might change.
It might adapt. It might grow like, again, like don't marry it, like it's gonna change. And then you're gonna have enlightening moments where you're gonna be like, oh, I learned that this actually is super valuable to be just exactly like you said. And there's this piece of advice that I hear all the time.
That's like your job posting should be like a sales page where you wanna get people to apply and work for you. And I'm like, absolutely. Like, I actually want people to read my job posting and be like, wow, I hate her. like, they suck. Like I don't wanna work there. That sucks. Like I'm not into it. Well that, whoa.
Nope. and there is those people that come in that are like, hell yeah. Like, absolutely. Like, I totally wanna like create content that's about love island, you know? Or like, I totally wanna. Be involved in something that is a reflection of our mission and our values. And that is going to be like, we talk about that with clients a lot where it's like your sales page is, you know, you wanna isolate the people that you really want, and then you wanna repel the people that you don't.
But let's be honest, like marketing is not that way. Like we'll repel a couple, but like, we also wanna change some of their minds with this. It's like, I don't wanna change your mind. Like this is who I am. Like, sorry, if you hate me and I will never know. I'm so glad ,
[01:06:02] Jordan: I'm so glad you said this because, We haven't talked about this, and this was kind of like an inadvertent thing, but also was probably part of just generally working with you that this happened when I originally posted a job opening.
and it was for a contractor, technically, both times it was for a contractor initially to start. The first time I had over a hundred people apply and I was like, oh my God. And I had to go through all these applications. And luckily someone on my team, Andrea, she handled all of that because I was on maternity leave.
[01:06:34] Jordan: But then when we hired for that essentially same position again, the next time we had so much more clarity on exactly what they were gonna do. Like we had a specific job description. We had all of these, these more specific details. And I mean, this page was overwhelming. overwhelming. Like there's so much that you're gonna have to like understand and be able to do.
And so we put it up there and we had like two applicants. and guess what? They were both perfect because scared the hell out of everybody else who saw that page. Mm-hmm and only the two people who were like, yeah, I could totally handle that applaud. Yeah. so I accidentally did that recently and, and so yeah, highly recommend making your job description, not enticing and terrifying and as close to reality as possible.
Yeah. Cause that's the thing is. If you're overwhelmed by this job description, you're not gonna thrive in this role. Right. Because it's gonna be overwhelming to you.
[01:07:27] Kira: Yeah. And it's funny, cuz job descriptions can in HR, we kind of talk about how they can do one of two things. They can literally give a person a blueprint of how to interview for the job or they will a, so like you get to a certain point and they're like, cool.
I can interview for this. I can like, I can read whatever book they were talking about and I'll be good to go. Like I'll trick 'em into hiring me. Or they can be one step further and actually encourage the right people based on values and like kind of those mushy soft things that I don't think you and I necessarily love, but they come up quite a bit when you're leading people.
And so if, if somebody's showing up and they're li and your job description is like, listen, like if you like have never left your hometown, then like, you're probably not gonna like it here. Like this isn't the vibe. Like we want this, whatever the situation is like, I've like straight up, like put.
Political stuff on job postings before, just because of like the place that I was at in my life, where I was like, I just can't tolerate tiptoeing around it. You're not gonna like it here. Respect to your opinions. You don't have to be my HR assistant. Like it's, it's okay to do that because that is also how we build a culture.
And the only cautionary tale I would say with that is that we just wanna make sure that we're not being discriminatory or we're discouraging people of diverse backgrounds to apply. And sometimes the way that we do that is we lay it all out there. And then we specifically say, if you are a person of color, if you're a black woman, if you don't meet all these qualifications apply anyway, like tell me why you wanna work here because 60% of women or women will not apply for a job.
Unless they meet a hundred percent of the application or a hundred percent of the qualifications. Men will apply to a job if they only meet 60%. So in an industry where we're actually looking for women to apply for the job, like, we kind of wanna encourage them to just like you got most of it down. Like, if you're good with 80% of this, I can absolutely teach you that 20%.
Especially if we're aligned on our values, we can like kind of hang out and talk. And we believe in the same things and we can show up for people in the same way and we can agree on a lot of stuff and we can have fun at our meetings. Like I will absolutely teach you how to use convert kit from the inside out if you've never heard of it, but everything else looks great.
Like honestly, like great, like line 'em up. Like you're still gonna end up with a lot of aligned applicants and you will have to make a really hard decision because that's when you get down to like three or four or five or six great people that like. You're like crap. Like I wish I could hire you all, you know, at the end of the day.
So there's another difficult conversation. but it is so much better than sorting through a hundred people that probably didn't even read all the way through and were just like, oh, she mentioned like that we have to use active campaign. Like, I'm pretty good at that. I'll win her over. Like those aren't the people we're looking for.
You know, we want the people that are like in it and they're gonna be like, I'm sorry, I applied for this with only 89.8% of the qualifications met. And I love you. Like, that's who I want to work for me. You know, those are the people that are gonna show up and spread the good word about the brand, not the people that are like for sure.
Yeah. That could be cool.
[01:10:41] Jordan: You know? No, no, no. I want people obsessed with what we do to join our team for sure. Yeah. So let's see, what else do we need to chat about? What, what is just like, super critical to talk about related to all this stuff?
I mean, I don't know. What do you think has been one of the, I guess more surprising things about the compliance stuff, cuz people never really wanna talk about that cuz it's scary and annoying, but I think because you hate it so much, it might be interesting to see it might be interesting to see what was kind of, a little bit surprising for you or kind of like confusing or game changer or whatever, when it came to all that HR compliance,
[01:11:19] Jordan: you know, I'll be real with you.
I, have kind of buried my head and that's why I hired you. So I don't have to think about it or worry about it. And then my accountant takes care of a lot of that stuff on the other side. And so my approach has been, just hire the people who are gonna worry about it. And I. Don't think about it. So I don't know.
I like, I haven't learned anything surprising because I haven't learned anything because I just ignore it.
[01:11:46] Kira: is that a bad answer? No, I don't think so, because it's, it just kind of shows that if anyone's listening, that's like, I can't take on that whole thing. Like you kind of, well, obviously, like if you hire us, you don't have to, but that's sort of the point of HR is that it does just run in the background.
Like that's why our services are based the way they are. Cuz like we'll see our clients a couple times every now and then if something's going on or during times of major scaling or whatever, but ideally like we don't talk to you that much, like that's kind of the point is like, you're just like out there vibing with your people and like this foundations are set and you can like tweak and change and you know, ask questions and stuff.
But for the most part, like. It's done. Like it's done once and it's done. So I think that's actually a pretty good example. Like it doesn't have to haunt you until you're dead. Okay.
[01:12:35] Jordan: good. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't pay attention at all, to it
yeah. I feel like it's been a pretty like painless experience. and especially now that we're going through, like this second iteration of it, of bringing on employees, it's kind of like, it, it, it doesn't really feel that, all that intimidating to me, it's like, okay, my accountant's gonna get us filed in the appropriate states.
Who's gonna get all the payroll stuff set up. I'm gonna bring you all on to do orientation and like have the handbook stuff done and like, you know, make sure we've got the audit done on like their state compliance stuff. And. They just start and that's it. And for all I know there's other stuff that happens behind the scenes related to those things.
But like, those are the only things that I know, and I know other people are taking care of it and then I just get to like work with the people.
[01:13:20] Kira: Yeah. So what do you do then when you have somebody that's new? What's the first thing, like when you're like all that's stuff's done, so I'm gonna bring in this person, like, they're gonna be my person.
Like, what are, what are you working on on the back end?
well, it depends because again, you gotta remember that, like, I don't follow your advice and I bring these people on as contractors first . So we've already done some of the onboarding and like the figuring out. So like in particular, I've got this gal who, just started as a contractor and we're planning to bring her on as an employee here pretty soon.
[01:13:49] Jordan: And I brought her on not even knowing what I was gonna have her be doing, because it was another one of those situations where I was like, oh man, like. She doesn't fit for the role that I'm actually hiring for right now, but she fits for something. And I just have this gut feeling and I, I like to go with my gut cuz usually it's right.
Mm-hmm actually, it's always right. So, I was like, I'm gonna just bring her on as a contractor and we're gonna figure it out. So that's what we've been doing for the like the last few weeks is just integrating her into everything that we do at the organization. It's a lot of calls. It's a lot of like, Hey, go watch these video recordings of these meetings that we've done.
Like take a look at these SOPs, asking for feedback, encouraging her to ask us questions. really just involving her at like a core level to figure out what exactly is gonna work for her position. And that specifically works in the place that I'm in, in my business as we're growing. And we're like kind of building out our organizational structure.
So there's a lot of opportunity. making things up as we go. And I think we've found where she's gonna fit. And, and that only happened once we had her in cuz I had multiple conversations with her before we brought her in as a contractor. And it was like, we couldn't really put our finger on it. Mm-hmm but the more conversations that we've had now that she's on the inside of the business, it's like, yep.
Okay. This is obvious. It, it presented itself as like an obvious solution of where she's gonna fit and now we're gonna be building out her job description based on that. And based on like specific things that she, she brings to the table. And so that that's been, that's been really fun. Our other couple of hires are actually coming on as, into roles that already existed.
So that's a little bit like easier for us to do the onboarding cuz we know exactly what they're gonna be doing. Mm-hmm but it's been really fun to work with her and figure out like, how is she gonna help. Grow and scale and fit into this, like new,
[01:15:40] Kira: not even created role. Yeah. Have you, cuz you've been making their training schedules and stuff, so, or how do you like approach training people?
Do you just have 'em show up to everything?
[01:15:54] Jordan: yeah. Yeah. Like, no, like I must have missed that memo when we were working together, like train what's the training schedule. so , here's what I do. no, we didn't talk about it. Don't worry. Do what I do. Maybe okay. so, so it depends. So like for this new gal who didn't really have a role to like easily slot into it is just like kind of open ended, seeing what questions she has getting on calls.
So like me and her getting on calls and just like, here's the background of the business. Here's how we function. Here's how we do this. Like what are your thoughts? What questions do you have? So it's just a lot of conversations. To give her all of that background and context to figure out, you know, what's this new role gonna be for the other folks.
It's easier because they're coming in to a position where there's already someone else doing their exact job. Mm-hmm so what I do is I just kind of have that person do it. I'm like, okay, you know, loop them in, loop them into what you're doing and kind of show them the things, see what questions that they have.
we, we will be refining that and coming up with an actual process, now that we've gone through this of bringing someone new onto the team, Which is, this is our first time doing that. everybody else has transitioned from contractor to employees. So they have all of the context of what we do and who we work with.
[01:17:11] Jordan: And they've been working with clients it's just changing their role a little bit mm-hmm . But this last month has been the first time that we've brought in someone who's completely from the outside and had to train them from scratch. So, we didn't really have a lot of materials for onboarding in place ahead of time.
And that's what we're kind of using trial and error to figure out how can we, how can we help them get onboarded as quickly as possible, and then documenting that process so that when we hire for this role again, which we know we're gonna do, probably within the next couple of months, we have everything kind of ready to go, and it's gonna
[01:17:44] Kira: be easier.
Yeah. It's funny that you say, like, I don't know, because you just like gave a training strategy, like top to bottom. like, I think it's cool, cuz like you're not even you do it so naturally, like you're like a natural kind of. I'd be interested. What in, do you know what, like your strengths finder or your Colby is?
I think we've talked
[01:18:05] Jordan: about your Colby, but, I do, I do. Okay. So yes, my Colby, I'm a strategic planner. 8 7 3 3. What's that
[01:18:14] Kira: mean? I mean, I can't, I'm not like a certified person, but the eight is a fact finder. So you're gonna be like really into like figuring out what all the information is. So that's a really high fact finder or they call it long because you can, I don't know.
It doesn't mean that you're like winning. It just means that that's where you are. and then the next one, it's also really interesting. I think that's the systems one. So it's like how you build and use systems. So there's a bunch of different ways to approach it where like, you can use it as you're managing people, but ideally like you kind of use your Colby alongside of like your, a personality test.
That's going to like give you context into like, exactly like how you approach problems. So like for you as a fact finder, like that level at an eight, anything over a seven is you're gonna initiate action and specify. So you're gonna actually be looking for specifics within facts. And so you're gonna know a lot of details, which makes you a natural educator and trainer.
And then that second one, the follow through, you're not just maintaining systems, you're actually finding ways to create them. So having a long. Follow through, which is the systems. One is gonna be something that's gonna put you in a position where you feel really good, just naturally putting things into a system, which I think is really funny because your quick start is a three, which is technically like the stabilizing area.
So it's like you put in the system and then you're like kind of risk averse in a sense that you just wanna like, keep the vibes going. Like, you know, a lot of details you might like probably think about stuff for a really long time before you take action on it. Or you might build out like a really, really solid system.
And then just to get to the point of main of like really making it stable and like keeping it going and like not having to take a lot of risks and like, you know, you probably have like a really solid, like monthly recurring revenue before you like jump on and like hire someone else or, you know, stuff like that.
and then the last one, the implementer that, one's the one that I'm not quite as. Familiar with, but we're both low on that. and I think it's, I don't
[01:20:20] Jordan: actually like to do the thing, so I don't know if that is what that means.
[01:20:23] Kira: Yeah. I mean either, I think it's, it's like using, like, implementing, like, meaning, like using the tool, like using tools in order to get to success.
So like, I think there's something with like the physical, like you ha in order to best approach something, like if you're really high on implementer, then you're like able to show people like how something should physically work. Whereas like when you are. Lower on it. It, we have like a higher like vision.
Like we can like, just see it in our head and we're like, okay, cool. Like, I'll just like create the thing that I know in my head will work. Whereas like maybe the higher implementers have to like actually physically see the thing. So the woman that she speaks in my group all the time and in my courses, she's a Colby certified person and she always talks about the implementer, cuz her husband, like her kid will like spill something on the ground and then she'll be like, oh my God, like, get he spilled, get me a paper towel and her husband instead of give, just handing her a paper towel will like look at it and like, be like, oh, and then he'll be like, oh, okay.
And then, and she's like, what? You didn't believe me? Like , you know, like why do you have to look at it? and so then I am, it's weird. Cause I'm like, well I really want my husband to take the Colby and like, let's just see what happens, but then I'm kind of scared. Like, what if I like, learned that he's like super crazy or something I also have like another, yeah, that's really, I have another friend that's, eight on quick start.
So super high, like takes action right away. I'm also a high, quick start. and her husband's a one, so they basically hate each other. so like, whenever it comes to anything, she's like interesting. He doesn't take risks. Like it's, I mean, she, obviously she loves him and I'm joking, but when it comes to like taking action, like it could not be more friction because it's just something that he's actively pushing away.
Like he's like, I wanna make sure all the risks are mitigated and I don't, I wanna understand this on like a higher, more intense level and, you know, stuff like that. And she's like, let's just see what happens, which is how I am. I wouldn't be surprised if my husband was also very low on the risk taking side of things in the quick start side of things.
So I just don't really wanna face it. So I'm not having him take it.
[01:22:31] Jordan: I, I. Might have my husband take it, cuz I just want to be validated. And I would, I would guess that he is the opposite of me on that. and it's interesting because I actually consider myself a pretty quick action taker, but only after I've thought through like every single angle, I just feel like I can do that pretty quickly.
Mm-hmm my husband's not the, not the same way. And I remember like an example that he gave when we first met and he was like, yeah, he's like, I'm not very good with details. Like, you know, I know I need to go get trash bags. So I just grab the first trash bag box that I see on, on the shelf at the store, even though it's like 12 times too big as the actual trash bag.
He's like, I just don't, I don't think through the things before I just do it, I just do it. And it, it does sometimes cause friction in our relationship because he'll just be like, oh, I need to do so. And so, and he'll just do it and never even like think from any angle, just like, oh, I need to do this, grab it.
Or like make the phone call or like tell the person. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We need to have conversations about this and like, think about the steps and like, well, but, but you know, what are the questions we need to ask before we actually decide he just doesn't do that. It's so funny.
And like build
[01:23:43] Kira: the system probably so like .
[01:23:46] Jordan: Yeah. And actually it's funny cuz I think we probably compliment each other. Well, it, it doesn't, it doesn't cause friction in a bad way because he kind of trusts me too on like, if I've done the thought then, like we both just take the action quickly together.
It's why we got married. Like 90 days after we met cuz it was like. Oh, maybe we just do this. Oh. And I was like, yep. Already thought through it. Here's the reasons why here's the reason not to, okay. Let's go get married in three days. And we did
[01:24:11] Kira: now that is a podcast episode.
[01:24:17] Jordan: and that's kind of how we've lived our life in general. Like we've, we've lived in like five different states in three years and we have two kids and we've only been married for, you know, not even three years. So do the math on that. Mm-hmm we had, we got pregnant like two weeks after we got married. So, Yeah, we just do things fast.
Yeah. Is what it is. Huh. Anyway, that's really cool to think about, to answer your question. and I won't make this all about like me and my personality, but my, my top five strengths are achiever competition related input and analytical. mm-hmm which. If for anyone who's taken strengths finder, cuz I know they say that doesn't is that the one where they say that doesn't really change, but it can kind of like things can like move positions and stuff.
So the Colby
[01:24:58] Kira: never changes. So that one's permanent, strengths finder, I think changes a lot less than like even the Enneagram or something. so, I think you, maybe if you take it like every 10 years, like it might be a little bit different. That's the one that I have a lot of education in. but I think it's interesting cuz you have the relator and the input.
So it's the input is essentially fact finder. Like you're just looking for information to make decisions and then your relator is, I think what's making you like a natural trainer and leader because you can like probably without even knowing like what do you do next? And you're like nothing and it's like, no, you just described.
what my next course is about. And you did it naturally. So it's like and cause you're, it's about training people and educating people is about the people it's not about the trainer. So being a good trainer, isn't about knowing the information it's about knowing the people that you're training and seeing what they need.
So you're just naturally like, yeah, I'm gonna give you some information and then ask me some questions and I'm sure some people have a ton of questions and some people don't and you probably just naturally make these decisions that are like, well, you're gonna spend time with this person now because I noticed you didn't ask the question.
So maybe we need to dig a little deeper and find where you're missing pieces. And you're just like figuring that out naturally, which is no. Like, I feel pretty like comfortable saying this because I don't have to suck up to you anymore because we're done with every well not anymore, but we don't, I don't have to suck up to you.
You've already paid me. Like you're already my client. You're already my friend, all that . But like, you're just really, like, that's a really cool natural skill. Like you can believe me. Like, I'm not just saying that, cause it's not that easy. It is not natural for people. Most people will take a look at their team and be like, you said, you could do the thing.
And it's like, well, yeah, but like, There's a lot of steps to get there, which you're like, well, yeah, but then how are they gonna, you know, that system's mindset from Colby is gonna come into play, but that's why we use, especially in, in our leadership course, we use both of these because you can see your Colby, which is forever.
And that's how you're like your gut is gonna tell you to make changes or act. Whereas your strengths finder is gonna be more your personality. So a friend of mine. She actually had an operations agency as well, but now she's a director of operations for a big marketing company. She ha and I have the same Colby, which is 7, 5 72.
So not super different from yours, but I'm much more like, let's see what happens. and also really high fact finder. So people always think I'm impulsive, but I'm so they kind of think, I'm just saying like, let's just do this thing, but they don't know that I stayed up till three in the morning, looking up data and statistics and memorizing it all with my photographic memory.
So people always think, oh, Kira, she's so flighty. And I'm like, actually, no, let me quote something. I read in a textbook last night because I wanted to make sure that my, you know, anyway, so it's kind of like a funny way to think about things, but my personality is literally not one strength finder is the same as.
So we have the same exact Colby. We're gonna approach problems in the same way we get along. Great. We work the same way. She's one of the only people I can like go to a coffee shop and work with. Like we just actually work, but then chat a little and then work and chat a little. but our personalities are so different and it, it is just like, totally like, you can just see how the colby
scores kind of manifest differently based on like who you are. And it's been so cool to see how this plays into educating leaders and educating managers and how they can use their own scores, not how they can like learn their team scores and then train them or, you know, work with them. But the best thing about Colby is understanding who we are.
And then if you look at someone else's scores and think, how can I best serve them or understand them not I'm gonna teach you how to understand me. So it's been pretty cool to see how that all shakes out in team stuff, but I am still, you know, secretly afraid of what my husbands are. So I'm not gonna lie.
haven't had him take it yet.
[01:28:41] Jordan: I, I love this and I feel like we could have done a whole upset about this because a lot of these personality things and like style things are, are so interesting to me. And I love all of them. And I'm like, everything that you said about this was very like a very like positive and like action oriented versus I feel like sometimes.
People can use some of these things as like a little bit of a crutch, like, oh, well this is why I can't do X, Y, Z very well. Or like, this is why I don't wanna blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, because I'm in engram, whatever. I'm like, mm-hmm, , I just, that, that stuff drives me crazy. Like, in my opinion, these tests should inform you on how you can kind of like amplify the good things that you're the, the things that you're naturally good at mm-hmm and have an eye for growth related to the things that you're not necessarily good at or, or ways that you can lean on others to help you.
But I just, it drives me nuts when people use these things as a crutch or like an excuse. Yeah, totally. If that's another hot take I've had, I feel like I've had a couple
[01:29:42] Kira: of those today. Yeah. It's a, that's a really good one. And I'm really glad you say that. Cuz sometimes I get a little short about things because I just.
Think it's ridiculous. Like we have to, yeah, we have to work really hard. Like I'm not, of course I'm like the most bleeding heart liberal in the world. But at the end of the day, like when it comes to work, like we've got a level of the playing field and we all have to show up in our best way. And I've had many times where there's been, either, and I don't wanna say it's like a disability because it's not, it's just that the way people have become attached to how they identify and how they work best.
And instead of seeking out real guidance and support, they use it as an excuse. And that can be really hard to manage. it's manifested a little bit in, like, this was a really uncomfortable conversation, but I had an employee that was like, I just can't get to work on time. Like I have ADHD and I was like, listen, I get it.
So do I, and guess what? I run the company. like next. And like, I hate to be like that, but I'm like, especially with women, I'm like, come on, girl, we've got this. Like, you can show up, like, you've got this, you know, like, and I think that when you take that and you turn it into, like, I'm pissed at you because you're being a victim and instead like, okay, let's take a look at what these things are that are an equal playing field for everyone.
And let me try to figure out how I can support you in the ways that you are strong. That's where your manager, like the manager, the leadership skillset is gonna turn your team from being like, kind of basic doing the main stuff. Like not really like hitting the next level to, oh my gosh, how did my business get this big?
And I just think it's a real compliment to you. And it's really interesting and I'm not lying because, you know, I don't have to is that you naturally have put people into their positions where their strengths and you're a, like their strengths are more. Like amplified by the position that you're putting them in.
And I see bringing someone on and not knowing where they're gonna go as a risk, which you're generally averse to, whereas the way you approach it, same exact situation is, oh, well, it's less risky if I bring them on as a contractor and figure out exactly where they're gonna fit. So it's just so funny to see how the same thing can mean something so different to two different people.
And we don't even work in the same business. So imagine if like you were my boss or we worked, we were partners like how valuable this information could be in getting from like doing the basic every day to like, Creating a space where people are like leaning into their work and loving it and loving their company and also like learning to lead themselves and others as a reflection of you as a leader, like that's where the real impact is coming from.
So I love that you brought that up because I just hate it. Cause I'm like, come on. We can, it's my job to make you not use ADHD as an excuse, because I already forgot what I was saying at the beginning of this conversation, cuz I'm right there with you.
I love it. Yeah. And that's that's I think again, like bringing it back to the top of something that I mentioned earlier, just the responsibility that it is to have employees, but also like such a cool level of responsibility. Like for me has felt like a whole other. A whole other layer of like legitimacy mm-hmm to what I do and to my company and to like the, the opportunity and potential for growth, because it is a very different way of like showing up.
[01:33:03] Jordan: I wear a very different hat now than I did when I just had contractors or when I was like just running my solo entrepreneur business, like, you know, previously. And I think it's really empowering. It's really empowering as a business owner. And I think it's really empowering too, for, for the people who are working, for like small businesses like this that are like, you know, getting started from the, from the ground level.
I think it's just a really cool thing. And I hope more people who listen to this podcast feel excited and, and inspired if that's like part of their growth trajectory to actually. Just like do it. Mm-hmm rather than being terrified because of the compliance stuff, like there's ways to get around that.
So I just wanted to hammer that point home.
[01:33:47] Kira: Yeah, for sure. That's awesome. Yeah. And like, if, yeah, or hire me if you don't wanna have employees. Yeah. That's what I was gonna say. If you don't like, make sure you think about that from the beginning, cuz I started this business and I say this with like full a hundred percent transparency and truth.
I've I manage 50 employees for my career career job. Paradigm's my side business. It more than out earns my my job that I have as a director. but we, and I am more of a partner at that company. It's not quite the same as a nine to five. I'm not gonna like put myself in the same position as like other side hustlers that really do this at night and on weekends, like I'm like, you know, I work here basically every day at paradigm, but there's a moment where you're kind of like.
I'm working within this, within the confines of what my, what my experience and what my life looks like. And I've created a business that works with my life. And at first I didn't want any employees. I was like, I have 50 hate. 'em all. I'm just kidding. No, but I'm like, I have 50 people that I'm already dealing with on a day to day, week to week basis.
I do not want a company that's gonna require me to have employees or require me to manage people. And that changed. That definitely changed over time. And like, I still do not want to have a big giant team. If I keep going working as in the confines of my partnership with my other business, if that changes and I decide to go all in on paradigm, it's gonna look a lot different, but the offers are created to allow for me to show up for my clients in the best way that I can.
Everything we offer within the offers are created in a way that's gonna allow us to deliver on them, even if it looks a little different than other businesses so that I can fully show up for them. and our team can fully show up for them. So if you're at a place now where you're like, eh, like I don't really wanna have employees, but I would love to have some support and get some tasks off my plate.
You can have that business model for sure. Just make sure that you're taking it two, three steps back and making sure your offers are lending itself to that as well. And that way you can actually reverse engineer the life you want based on your offers. And just don't like build that first and then let's see where the people fit in.
Not so much, like I don't want the people, so I'm gonna bottleneck myself right away. Like you could. Maybe you'll have a business that can grow 2, 3, 4 times bigger with just one person. In which case, why not? Like you don't have to be thinking about running a team of 20 people. It can just be like a small, tight knit group of three or whatever feels good for you at the time.
You can go either way and still grow. Just don't not grow because you're afraid of it.
[01:36:21] Jordan: yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. Because there are so many, there's so many ways to do it. There's so many ways to get to point, whatever that you wanna get to. So yeah. I love it. Well, I think that's a good place to end.
Yeah. Anything else?
[01:36:34] Kira: Inspirational.
[01:36:36] Jordan: yeah. Yeah. And long winded. Damn sorry, everybody. Two hours in, I'll put a disclaimer at the beginning. Hopefully, whoa, give people a chance to that. Skip through, skip through my, sales pitch there at the beginning of the episode. but we'll, we'll put your info in the show notes.
We'll drop in the info about your courses and your programs and all of the things so people can find you. And, is there anything else you wanna leave us with before we wrap? no.
[01:36:59] Kira: I mean, I think we covered it all. I just think this is a really cool podcast and you're doing a great job.
[01:37:04] Jordan: oh gosh, you with the compliments today just left and right.
I love it. It's Friday after all this was super fun. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for coming
[01:37:16] Kira: on
[01:37:17] Jordan: anytime.