How to hire a team and find the right people with Mackenzie B. Fleming

 Description: Tune in as we discuss building a team, finding the right people, and how to set your team (and yourself) up for success. We dive into topics like trusting your gut and going off “vibes,” what to do when things don’t work out, and the difficulty of relinquishing control to your team.

For the full show notes and access to resources mentioned in this episode visit https://www.easyscaling.com/blog/episode7

In today's episode, we’re talking about building a team, finding the right people, and how to set your team (and yourself) up for success.

My guest is Mackenzie B Fleming. She is the go-to copywriter for coaches and service providers who aren’t afraid to stand out and spice up their industry. As a copywriter and messaging coach, she's worked with 6, 7, and 8-figure brands to develop their signature brand voice and craft conversion-optimized copy that maximizes both sales and impact. From websites to sales pages to emails and beyond, in industries ranging from B2B technology to beauty, she's here to help your brand build genuine connections with your audience while consistently converting.

Topics discussed:

• Why you have to be open to shifting roles and staying flexible
• Where to find new team members
• What to do when things don’t work out with a contractor
• All things onboarding, including what NOT to do
• The importance of enthusiasm and going off “vibes”
• Adapting to new team members and growing together
• My favorite hack for trialing new team members
• Difficulty relinquishing control to your team
• Radical transparency and idea meritocracy
• Ideas for team bonding activities, team retreats, and team gifting

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Transcript

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How to hire a team and find the right people with Mackenzie B Fleming

All righty in today's episode, we are talking about building a team we're talking about finding the right people for your team, how to onboard them, how not to onboard them  all kinds of fun stuff about team. My guest is Mackenzie B Fleming she is the go-to copywriter for coaches and service providers who aren't afraid to stand out and spice up their industry.

She has worked with six, seven eight figure brands to help develop their signature brand voice and craft conversion, optimize copy that maximizes both sales and impact. McKenzie's amazing. McKenzie's also a bit of a potty mouth, so, uh, I love her for it, but just fair warning that I think we've marked this episode as explicit because she is definitely spicy.

Enjoy this conversation. I know I did, and I hope it will be valuable.

Jordan: Welcome. Welcome everyone. Welcome McKenzie. I'm so glad you're here. This is gonna be fun. 

Mackenzie: I'm so excited to be here. I'm like a rambler heads up, but I'm so excited cuz we also haven't talked in a while, so I'm like ready 

Jordan: to go.

Yeah. sorry everyone. It's just gonna be me and McKenzie catching up and you get to listen in. You get to listen in. Yeah, exactly. No we're gonna, we're gonna talk about some serious stuff. We're gonna talk about team. We're gonna talk about hiring, finding the right people, uh, which is pretty critical stuff.

And then who, who knows what else we might talk about? We're just gonna wing it, gonna wing it as we usually do here. Okay. So first before we talk about all this fun stuff, maybe give us some context who you are you? Yeah. What do you do? Where are you at in your business? Things like that. Yes. 

Mackenzie: Hello friends fam.

Everyone. Just kidding. It's just my 

Jordan: family. It's just my family listening. Yeah. 

Mackenzie: hello fans out there across the world. No, I'm McKenzie B Fleming. I'm a copywriter for coaches. What I tell people when they're like, what's a copywriter. I say, I'm that person that writes the shit that makes you money. I hope I'm allowed to cuss on this podcast.

That's my one question that I forgot to ask, but, I write like sales pages, website, copy all of these things. I'm also like a messaging mentor. So I teach you how to master your own messaging and write your own shit. So if words are involved and they involve sales words that persuade and convert like that is my motherfucking jam.

Jordan: So yes, you are a copyrighting queen. I can vouch. That's true. I can vouch. You have some really cool products too. I remember. Oh my gosh. This was like, it feels like a million years ago. It was probably only like a year and a half ago, but COVID times, make time go by weird.

And it was like a sales page guide that there was some really cool headline 

Mackenzie: action pack. That's what it's online generator. Yes. That just retired for a moment because, what is that called? Spoiler alert. I'm coming out with a template shop soon. So I'm gonna have like sales page templates and it's gonna have all that good shit in it.

So it's retired for the moment, but sales pages are my jam. I love creating like digital shit to help people write their own things. Like, oh my God, that's. That's my shit. 

Jordan: I love it. I love it. I, I dig out your head headline something. What are what'd you call it? Headline generator, headline generator. I, I dug that out a couple times.

It's good. It's good stuff. I like, but I like spreadsheets. I'm a nerd. So I love that you've taken something that's like artsy and turned it into like a formula. It's like a math equation. Did I 

Mackenzie: though, because the answer is now I had my assistant do it because I was like, I have a vision. I know nothing about spreadsheets, Google Excel, or no, that's two different things.

Google, Excel and Excel are like foreign languages to me. I had to ask my boyfriend the other day, like how to make it. So the text wraps in a cell and he's like, are you kidding me? Like, so this is the power of a team people segueing. Yes. 

Jordan: Perfect segue. So let's, let's talk about it cuz I know you're going through this right now and I.

I love talking about hiring and talking about team, cuz it's been a really fun and big part of my journey with this business because everything that I do relies on my team and everything that we do for our clients relies on our team. so it's been a big piece, but I'm, I'm curious to hear where you're at in that process right now.

Mackenzie: Yeah. So I'm in like a very interesting stage where like I've always had a VA I've like, I'm working with like a project manager right now. I I've like dabbled in different roles of outsourcing. Like I outsource a lot of my design and stuff, but right now is the first time that I've been like, okay, I'm at a point where I need to like have a legit, like structured team where we all work together instead of Mackenzie like hires a blah, blah and then outsources, blah, blah, and then delegates everything and does all the things like.

So I've got my PM slash like client success manager. A team staff, whatever you wanna call copywriter, who doesn't actually write my client's copy, but she's working on a lot of my content, like for Instagram and blogs and all these things as I'm kind of also teaching her like sales copy and how to write like sales pages and website copy and whatnot.

So I'm in like a very interesting kind of like in the middle phase where I'm kind of figuring it out as I go, but I'm very excited because I know that this is so crucial. And also just one has always been one of my biggest goals. I know when I work with coaches and they send you that survey and they're like, what do you want most in your business?

Or what do you see for your future? And I'm like, team is so important to me. I want people that I can feel really like comfortable and confident in and trust and rely on and work together. I was joking. I was telling somebody the other day, I was a figure skater growing up solo. So like, I didn't have a team and now I'm like, I just need a team sport.

So I'm making it my business. But for real, like I just wanna be able to collaborate people with people and like grow something together rather than feeling like the whole world is on my shoulders. 

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. It, and I, I think it's just more fun that way. and even a lot of the people on my team have come from like corporate or something else, you know, where they didn't, they didn't just like start out owning their own business.

Right? Like most people, we evolved into that. And when I bring people on, when I started bringing on new contractors, Because we're very collaborative cuz we're working with like individual clients, but there's a lot of like cross collaboration between my contractors because one person may be writing copy.

One person may be doing like marketing strategy, one, person's building out the tech and you may have 3, 4, 5 of my team members working on one project for you. And several of them individually were like, this is so fun because it's like, we still are owning our own businesses. These like contractors that are on my team, but we actually get to collaborate with people and that's really rare in the online space.

And so I think it's fun for everyone. 

Mackenzie: I agree. And like, that's kind of where I'm at with my like team copywriter. Who's writing like our internal shit. she is like a newer copywriter, but I, I don't remember how I came across her online, but I just remember stalking her for quite some time being like, I love her vibe.

I love. What seems like her worth ethic. Like, I didn't know her yet, so I'm like inferring a lot of shit. Right. But still like very intrigued. And then she reached out to me and was interested in coaching my business and messaging coaching. And I'm like, well, shit, like, I'll teach you how to write your copy and grow your business.

You wanna like, do a Tradesy. And it's kind of funny how that works out in such a, like for me and for her, I feel like really perfect way of like, getting to know each other's businesses as we're growing our own. Like, it's this huge like, oh, like juicy ass collaboration, like of just growth and like 

Jordan: fun.

Yeah. Yeah. It's super fun. It's super fun. And there's so many different layers and different like approaches that you can take to team. And I'm now going through this new phase and this added layer of. Bringing on employees. I actually brought on three employees this month. Yeah. It's and that's been totally different and also fun and very scary in a good way.

Like, it feels like a lot of responsibility to have employees versus just contractors. And I ha just had contractors up to this point. and so now it's, it's like a cool mixture of like, oh, I feel like I'm building like a little family , you know? Yeah. It's pretty 

Mackenzie: cool. You know, what's funny for me too, is that I like, when I imagine growing my team and like growing my business, I imagine like I need like 10 people on my team.

Like I need all of these people under me and I'm telling them like, but from a lot of trial and error, I feel like I've found at least with my business at this point, like. Two people who do their jobs really well. And like do them fully is like enough for me at first it felt like, oh, well I need to be hiring more people.

Like I need to be doing X, Y, Z. But I feel like it really does depend on not just like your business, but where you're at in that, that will determine what makes sense for hiring, because I would love to have like a million employees one day. Right. But it doesn't make sense right now. And it's like not something 

Jordan: to force.

Yeah. Cuz it's, it's definitely another, I think people assume, oh, I'll I'll hire this team member. I'll bring on this contractor. I'll do this. And then it's gonna magically like solve these problems. No, once you start bringing on team, you get a lot more responsibilities. 

Mackenzie: so I of brand new problems too. Yes, 

Jordan: totally.

Totally, totally. And just the. The process of finding good people and the right people and training them and then managing them and like doing all the backend. And it's, it's a lot. And I mean, I'm not setting up this whole episode to like tell people, this is why you hire me because I've already hired your team and you just get to use everybody.

but that is the big thing of like why I started my business because I was seeing that, well, people don't just need an OBM and they don't just need a VA and they don't just need like a copywriter or someone to help them with, like, they need all of that. And they, and it, it. It goes up and down, but most people can't afford or, and, and, or don't have the time and energy bandwidth to find all of those people one off all of the time.

Jordan: And so it's just complicated. I mean, it's funny, you you're talking at the beginning, like, oh, I'm in this weird messy, like kind of figuring it out and like trans well that's where everyone who's running, like a small business is all of the time. It's, there's not like a clear cut path and trajectory to going from no team to having a team.

Mackenzie: Yeah. A hundred percent. And I've definitely like tried different like techniques to hire into onboard into all these things. And I feel like I've, had difficulties along the way. I've had a lot of. Really great people I've worked with. And then like my first VA, she was amazing, but like got pregnant, wanted to raise a family.

So she couldn't do that anymore. Couldn't VA anymore. But then I like ran into a issue where I hired like a social media manager and she, I kid you not, I'm not gonna drop any names. Don't worry. like wouldn't do the work, but then was like, when are you gonna pay me? And I'm like, oh wait, hold on. What is going on right now?

Weird. It was, yeah. So it's like that thing where you have the good experiences and you have the negative and you just have to take them both and figure out what the fuck am I gonna do moving forward. So that this person that I know has a ton of potential. And I know I vibe with will actually work out in the long run.

And to me that's like very hands on onboarding and overgiving information in terms of like, Anything. I say, I basically put in a Google doc and like create an SOP out of her or something and like hand it over because I know sh like my copywriter's getting like a lot thrown at her. We're talking about blogs, we're talking about Instagram copy.

We're talking about all these different things. So I don't know. I, I know it's been like a messy process along the way, but I am grateful for every weird situation I ran into because I feel like I could be told a million times how to hire correctly and how to onboard correctly. And I would like try to, at least me personally, try to like cheat the system and get by without like doing all of the things.

And now I'm like, okay, I'm doing all the things I'm taking all the steps and it's working out really fucking well. 

Jordan: Good. I'm glad. And I, I wanna dive into the specifics about the things that you've done, that, that did not work and the things that are working. And I, I really wanna go, I wanna go there. but I do, I do want to say that.

Well, I, I think I've been fortunate that I've, I've lucked out with pretty much across the board, great people, that I've found for my team. And I haven't really had a lot of situations where I've had to like, let people go, you know, mm-hmm, like having those types of uncomfortable conversations. I mean, I've definitely had to have some semi uncomfortable conversations.

Right. Um, but for the most part, it's been a really good experience because I think, you know, there's a wide range of what you can find in the online space, uh, when it comes, especially when it comes to hiring like a VA, like that's just such a generic term. Mm-hmm for God. I mean so many things. And, I'll harp on the fact that.

I see a lot of people starting to hire before they actually know what they're hiring for and they get someone in there who's actually not a good fit. But on the flip side of that things that I've kind of stumbled into, actually two people who are on my team, who are now employees, I hired for one thing, or I reached out to them for one thing.

Uh, and one of 'em her name's Andrea, anyone who knows Andrea, any of my clients, listening, anyone who's touched anything that I do knows Andrea, as like a unicorn. She's amazing. I hope she's listening to this. She is the bees knees. I love her. And when I brought her on, I brought her on as like a tech person and now she.

Evolved into this very like client facing role, more of like project management, customer success, client relationships, like all of these things that I never would've known. And she might, she probably wouldn't even have reached out or applied for that position. You know? So I think there's, there's a lot of adapting that you have to be ready to do when you find the right 

Mackenzie: people and like growing together, like someone's gonna come to you for one thing and you both think it is gonna be that one thing.

And then as you work together and it can evolve and it can go different ways. And I feel like that's a big part of the hiring and working with a team process is just being open minded to what's working. How can we like capitalize on what's working and how can we like pivot or maybe find somebody new for what's not working type thing.

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So tell me where you started when you were like, okay, I'm gonna. Bring on a team, I'm gonna bring on a, something who, what was that something and how did that first one go? Yeah. 

Mackenzie: So this was when I was still at corporate, my nine to five. but shit was getting wild in my business.

Just this was back when my niche was business to business technology specifically, I was writing for a lot of artificial intelligence companies, which is so funny to think about now, because I'm not great at technology. I just, I got sick of the old white, rich men real quick. And now we're with coaches and we're loving it.

But anyways, I was at corporate and like a lot more clients were coming in and there was a lot going on and I was like, IM overwhelmed. I need someone or something or anything to like help me, even if it's just somebody like putting the hashtags in later for me and scheduling my posts. Like I need something.

So I. Did all my Googling was on Pinterest for a minute, looking for like all the blogs and shit. And I was like, okay, I need a VA. So I went on Upwork because I had been like a copywriter on up, like, how do you say that? Like, I wasn't a client searching for people on Upwork first. I was the person providing services.

And I was like, okay, like, let me see who I can find. And I found, the first, I think it was like the first woman I reached out to and we just like vibed, hardcore. And she's like, your job was actually the first one I applied for. Like, I've never done this before. Like, let's do it. I'm like, oh, okay. And it was great.

it was funny how, like all of that worked out with, I don't know, Upwork is like, I feel like hit or miss. And it was like crazy to me that it worked out so well from the first person I reached out to. so she was just like scheduling posts for me, making graphics, doing hash, hashtag research, just little things along the way.

and like I, I mentioned earlier, she got pregnant, started a family, so she couldn't work with me anymore. and that's when I was like, I kind of went on a rampage of like, do I need a VA? Do I not need a VA? No, I definitely need a VA. Okay. Now I'm stressing out because I need a VA. Now I need one today or yesterday.

Mackenzie: So I'm trying to find anybody who's like available and like working with them. And then it's not working because I didn't even onboard like just a whole mess of like, kind of frantic, like searching for help and in that moment, and then whatever, So I now have my VA slash PM who was referred to me by a client of mine, who I'm obsessed with both the client and the PM, but like, we've been together a year now.

It's going great. I love her. and then I worked with actually Tatiana O'Hara. She is like a team ops and agency specialist. I worked with her like a while ago, but I was like, I know I need more help. I don't know what to do. I don't know who I'm hiring. So she, was like, okay, social media's the issue, hire someone for social media.

So we walked through like this whole process of like how I'm gonna hire them, how I'm gonna onboard them and what no one tells you is like, you can follow all the rules. And like, there will still be outliers of people who just. I, I knew I was taking a chance with the girl that I hired for this, because she was like brand new out of corporate.

She hadn't had many clients. I go very heavily off of vibes in how I interact with people. So I liked her for that. and then shit just kind of hit the fan when I said earlier and I, I caught myself after, but I was like, oh, I said that wrong. about how, like, she didn't do the work. And then it was like, when are you gonna pay me?

I pay my contractors. And I pay my people before they do the work, but it was like, I had paid her for a month and there was no work. And then it was like, wait, where are you? And she like, wouldn't respond in all of these things. And the only time she would respond was be like, okay, your invoice is due. And I'd be like, wait, what about all the work from last month?

So that was the shit show. But I, again, I'm grateful for everything that kind of happened along the way, even if in the moment it was so uncomfy and I. Like reread my emails over to that girl a hundred times, trying to think of like, how am I gonna say this? Isn't working like, without sounding like a bitch and like, blah, blah.

And then I kind of just had to put my bitch pants on and be like, yo, this isn't working. Yeah. Um, but it's all kind of led me to now being like, really confident in what I'm doing and who I'm doing it with is in regards to like my team as a whole. 

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. I have only had one situation where I had to like actually let someone go because of, well essentially no communication with me.

And fortunately it wasn't like I was in a bad financial situation because of that. But since my team is like, at the core of what I do, I have sense, cuz that was very early on. I always have two people on my team who can do one thing in case something does happen. Cuz I mean life happens. And especially when you're working with contractors, you never know like, I mean most contractors are amazing.

Jordan: And like I said, most of the ones I've ever worked with have been amazing, but. If it's like a core, uh, part of your business, things that have to get done, then you don't ever wanna be stuck in a lurch or like what you were saying around like panicking and trying to find someone as fast as possible. Like I've definitely had to do that, that one time.

Like, okay, well I'm never doing this again. So mm-hmm, , I'm gonna make sure that I've always got two people, which works in my situation may not work in everybody's situation, but one way just logistically that I've been able to do that is I do also pay my contractors, especially when they're new ahead of time.

Uh, and this is like a hack that I tell all of my, uh, agency clients and people who come and ask me all kinds of questions about like, how do you grow an agency? And I always tell them, well, when you find someone who you think is a good fit book, a package of hours with them, like something really small, like five hours, And just see where it goes.

I mean, five hours. I mean, depending on how much they charge, even if they charge a hundred bucks, like 500 bucks, if you're gonna lose it and they're never gonna return your call or something is not that big of a deal compared to like booking, you know, like a full month thing of like 20 hours. and I also, the, the, the very important piece to that is making sure that those hours don't expire.

So yeah, not getting locked into some type of like ongoing monthly contract with someone that you've never worked with before, which sounds like, was maybe part of the situation where you were in with that gal is like you had this monthly recurring thing. yeah, you can get in kind of a bad spot 

Mackenzie: with that a hundred percent.

Like, I feel like. I also get overexcited. I'm like such an impulsive person. I just get over excited, especially about business shit. Like, oh, I want a website. I need to hire a designer right now. Like, that's how I kind of was with like, team. And I'm like, I need to hire someone right now for like the rest of my life.

It needs to be this up. Like you can do like the trial runs and that's everything that I've been doing ever since. I've made sure that I am not locked into like monthly recurring packages, because I remember with the, girl I had the situation with, I was like, okay, I just wanna do one month at a time.

And she's like, okay, like, we can just do that, but like just sign the contract so I don't have to change it. And my dumb ass was like, okay, cool. right. Like I now am. I don't know. Just very, even if I'm, I it's hard for me because I'm like, I don't wanna be a burden. I don't wanna be a bitch. Like. Fuck it.

Sometimes you need to be a burden and be a bitch so that you don't have a bitch and a burden. Oh my God. Put that on 

Jordan: a bumper. that was good. That was good. I mean, you're running a business, right? Like anyone listening to this is running a business. You can't like do something just to be nice to someone or not be a burden to them.

Like you have to do what's right for your business and your model, especially when it comes to financial, things like this. so that you don't get into a situation that is not sustainable or some kind of like weird contract that you can't get out of. Uh, so check your contracts. I can't offer legal advice, but we've had a fabulous lawyer on the podcast and I'm obsessed with her templates.

So go get a template from her. but I think, I don't know. I, I think it it's. Like you said, it's like, people think that, oh, I have to hire this person. And I have to find like the perfect person for like long term. And I think there are definitely situations where you need to spend the time, slow down, really find someone who's right for the job.

But then there's other times where like you just need help and you need help. Like, yeah, like you said yesterday. And so finding someone who can kind of bridge the gap there, can be a good option for some folks. Where do you find, where do you find your people? I mean, you said you mentioned Upwork.

Where else have you looked for, for 

Mackenzie: teams? Well, that was the only time I used Upwork, was for my first VA. And then I kind of like bopped around, like asking in Facebook groups, like who's any VAs in here who can do X, Y, Z X, Y, Z. And that's where I like, found like the one off people for like, just to get me through a month or something.

And then when I was hiring for that social media manager, I thought I did everything right. Because I made this job description, pretty in depth. I like had a application but I, I don't know if this is like accurate or not, or like sounds bad, but I feel like I made the job description too fun, not, not the job description, but my brand voice, like I spoke in the, my brand voice is very distinct and I write the way I speak.

And I'm gonna do that regardless of if I'm writing a job application description or if I'm writing a sales page. So I write it the way I like I speak. And I think people took that the wrong way, because I got a lot of people like in the applications being. I don't care what I'm doing. I just like the, your vibe, like, let, let me just work for you.

Like, let's just work together or people being like, I'm not, like, what is it called? Like doesn't have all the credentials or whatever experience at all, but like, I wanna work with you and I'm like, shit, man. Okay. That was not the vibe I was going for. No, but, ever since that, I now only go based off of referrals or people that I stalk.

Jordan: Ooh. Oh, interesting. Interesting. I, I love we have, we've got very different approaches here, so I am also big on vibes. So I think I've got about 15 people on my team. Three of which are employees. The rest are contractors and I think only one of them has filled out an application. Everyone else I found on social media.

I think maybe everyone. from Facebook groups. So I would post in a Facebook group, like a one sentence thing, and I would put this in like five different groups. Uh, and I would say like, I'm looking for a copywriter which don't go do that. Anyone listening in lesser, you are unbelievably prepared mentally, uh, and time wise to get hundreds of detail responses.

Yeah. 

Mackenzie: Hundreds of deals. I'm gonna say, I don't know how you did that because I, I feel like even when I made my shit very specific, I. An absurd amount of responses. So just saying like, I need a copywriter, I need 

Jordan: a designer. Yeah. Well, I would put like a couple caveats in there. I mean, I would keep it vague as far as like what I needed one specific one that I put, I know I put was like, I need a Kajabi expert, you know, but then the important part for me when I'm looking for new team, cuz I do start everyone out as a contractor so that I can do some type of trial.

Right. Um, is that they are willing to work on a part-time contract basis and charge hourly. Like I don't, I don't do packages. Like I don't do anything like that because that's not how I work with my clients. We do mostly hourly work. And so you can't charge me a package and then me turn around and bill my client hourly, it just doesn't work like that.

Like I ha have to have you tracking time. So I, I would post on Facebook groups sift through hundreds of DMS. Comments, all the places. And it's a big thing on like how people reached out to me. Like mm-hmm, , you know, their initial message to me. If they had a website or something like that, like, I, I'm gonna look at that.

I'm gonna look at your portfolio. I'm gonna look at that stuff just as like an initial kind of cursory check. And if you pass some of those, like initial things, I'm gonna send you a message and I'm probably gonna send you a voice message giving you my like 32nd spiel of like, here's what we do. Here's how we serve.

Here's how I pay people. You know, what questions do you have? And then it's purely like vibe check, conversation back and forth from there. and it actually, you can weed people out really fast in that way. You 

Mackenzie: so can. I mean, I, I haven't done the Facebook thing in a long time, but even when people will tag me and like looking for a copywriter.

Previous clients of mine will tag me. Oh, you should check out McKenzie. Sometimes I'll like scroll through the responses just to see what people are saying. Like the way people respond is such a, either like hit or miss people will be like, yes, Hey, hit me up. Okay. Like, that's it like, yeah. I'm not hitting you up.

Like either you hit me up, like some people, what are we doing here? What are we doing? But yeah, definitely like first impressions are everything when it comes to like that. 

Jordan: Totally, totally, totally. And. Like from someone who has posted from my perspective, as someone who it's like posting a job opportunity, if someone like just puts a comment on there and like no other information, I'm not gonna go down a rabbit hole, like trying to figure out who you are.

Like, that's not my job. Like if you're actually interested, you better send me like a really succinct, enthusiastic description of what you do and why I should reach out to you and take the initiative because I, and this is something that I was actually glad that I had seen from this side. Uh, because then I will see some of those threads where maybe someone's looking for like an OBM or a business strategist, or like a team or something that I think I would maybe be a good fit for them.

And I used to maybe just like put a comment and be like, oh, you know, I'm happy to chat with you. Mm, no, don't put stuff like that. That is an absolute waste of your time, because they're not gonna click that. If they're getting hundreds of messages, you have to say why they should reach out to you and probably also DM them unless 

they 

Mackenzie: say not to.

And can we talk about the enthusiasm aspect too? Yes. If you, you touched on like, I think that is huge. Like you can be, Hey, my name is Mackenzie. I'm a copywriter. Here's my link to my portfolio. Like, cool. I'm really glad you gave me some information. I know what you are. I know what you do. Like here I can grab the portfolio.

That's a really great start, but what separates people for me? And that's what I really go for. Maybe that again is based on me, like with the vibe checks and shit, but it's like when someone, their, even their brand voice and like these comments of just like how they. presenting themselves. Oh shit. Like that sounds like my jam.

Like I've I love Kajabi. I don't know. It's the enthusiasm really? That like takes me from putting someone out of maybe to like a, oh, must actually look at their portfolio. Yeah. 

Jordan: Yeah. There's gotta be something interesting and intriguing to get me to, to go a level deeper mm-hmm on the comments and on the DMS.

I mean, there's so, I mean, think about it. Like, if you are getting a hundred DMS, like you can't read all those, you can't respond to all of them. You can't go look at their profile and all of them. And it's also, and I hate to say this, but it's true. It's like the first ones. because once I start going through and I may have maybe have a hundred and I'm looking at like the first initial ones and I've found like two or three, well now my drive to go through the rest of the hundred is like way low

Mackenzie: And it's like, if they all start looking exactly the same. Yes. Like, unless something is like very different. So like when I'm starting, if I'm looking at the DMS, the first few, oh, I'm intrigued, I'm reading every word I might go check you. Well, and then it's like, the more as I go, it's like, it looks somewhat similar to the rest.

Somewhat similar. Yeah. Like you just lose your stamina. So really the timing is like, unfortunately 

Jordan: huge. Yeah. And, and on the flip side of like, not doing something too simple, like, Hey, send me a DM or Hey, I can help also don't send me like 12 paragraphs that like, yes. Hey, go look at this to see this thing that I do and go check out this and here's this I'm like, no, no, no, no, I don't.

I don't have time for that. 

Mackenzie: Sorry. Can we also just mention. when they're so eye driven, like the pronouns that the prospect or prospective candidate is using is just, I, I, I, I love what you do. I want to help because I love copywriting because I love this and I love that. And I like this and I'm good at this.

It's like, , this is probably the copywriter in me, but everything should be you driven. Mm. Like, I love the way you're doing this. I could help you in this way. Like, this will benefit you in this way. This is gonna help you in this way, rather than like, I just really love like X, Y, Z. It's like, honey, I love X, Y, Z too.

But like, what are you doing for me? Yeah. Like the whole 

Jordan: thing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure if I notice stuff like that. I think maybe on some level, everyone kind of probably does notice stuff like that, at least subconsciously. Yeah. I definitely think it's the copywriter in you that like probably picks out a lot more of that stuff than other people.

Probably 

Mackenzie: a hundred percent. Yeah. But I mean, I feel like everybody on some level is. Wow. Like they're like, I, I, I don't know. Maybe 

Jordan: I'm no, I mean, I, I think that's just kind of like natural human instinct too. If you're putting out a call for someone to help you, and then they come back with all the stuff about them, it's like the same thing in a conversation.

Right. You know? Uh, I I'm asking for help. I don't really care that much about you. No offense. 

Mackenzie: I love that. You love doing X, Y, Z, but like I don't. 

Jordan: Yeah. What does that to do with me? Here's what I need. Yeah. okay. So this is kind of spiraled into what to do and what not to do when searching for people in Facebook groups to be on your team.

And specifically, I think it's actually been more helpful for people who are responding to those job opportunities. So let's get back to the actual hiring of the team. Let's talk a little bit about onboarding. What have you done? What have you done? 

Mackenzie: What have I done wrong is like fucking not onboarding at all.

It's like, Hey, like let's get on a call. Okay, cool. I need some help with social media. Can you do that? Nice. Awesome. All right. Let me know if you have any questions. Bye. Like, that's my go to line and I definitely encourage questions, but it's also like, it's hard for people who are brand new, just thrown into the game to be like, oh, I have all these questions when like you haven't given them enough information to go off of to have any questions.

Yeah. I, I now, like I was saying earlier, like give more information, more SOPs, more like shit written down than necessary, just so that whoever's on the other side, who I. Obviously, I don't know super well. I haven't worked with them a ton. I don't know how they learn. I don't know how they like incorporate and integrate like this information.

So I wanna give more rather than just like leave somebody floundering. And that's made a huge difference for me. I last week or the week bef no, a few weeks ago was like our first week together with my copywriter. And like, we had a call like every other day, just checking in, making sure like things were okay.

You know, what to write for this, like going through work together, like we'll write out an Instagram caption together. We'll outline a blog together. Like, so she can see kind of my thought process and my approach so she can mimic it in her own way with her own like spice, but still be able to be like on brand and giving me the type of information and like quality that I expect.

So I would just say like, If any, if you're gonna do anything balls to the wall with a team like onboarding yeah. In my opinion is gonna make a huge difference. 

Jordan: Yeah. It's super important. And, and the way that you approach onboarding is going to vary pretty greatly, depending on if you already have some people on your team.

And if you have your SOPs now, you probably know this about me McKenzie, but I love SOPs and , uh, but I didn't have SOPs when I first got started. And I think a lot of people wait or put the pressure and expectation on themselves to be like, oh, well, I can't hire until I have all of my SOPs, like in like my ducks in a row, all of my SOPs lined out.

Now that's not the case. I think if you have them great, if you don't have them, don't let it stop you from going ahead and hiring people. Right? Because all of my initial people, when I brought them on, especially my tech people who were taking over a lot of the stuff that I was originally doing, they onboarding was not super structured, but it was very high touch.

And I think that's like, what you're getting at is like, there has to be a lot of communication. We were getting on a lot of calls. I was doing a lot of looms and the hack that I found that I recommend to everyone, if you don't have SOPs is have your new people. Create the SOPs for you based on you. Like you give all the information and then have them turn that into an SOP and then work together to really like streamline it into the exact process that you want.

Mackenzie: I think that also shows like, just like having SOPs ready or asking them to create SOPs or even just like onboarding in general when you're getting on a lot of calls. I think that really shows your people. That you're invested in them and care more than just like, I don't know. I feel like it's more than I'm throwing money at you get my problem fixed.

And then all they're expecting is, oh, I'll like take some money and do some work, like rather than like I'm investing in you and you're investing in me type thing. Yeah. 

Jordan: Oh for sure. And it's again, like there's so many like layers and you start to really adjust and adapt, based on where you are.

Because at the beginning I was doing a lot of like quality control checks with my team. So like you do the thing, send it to me. I will review it. I'll send you back a loo being like, Hey, I would do this. Hey, I would do this. And I. Sometimes people do that, but they forget to give the feedback back to the person.

Uh, and so it's like, Hey, you go do the thing and then they send it to you and then you go fix a bunch of stuff. And then you never, like, tell them what you changed. Yeah. And so they don't know how to get better. They, they have no idea. Mm-hmm 

Mackenzie: I know, I like that's one of my downfalls with team that I've like, definitely learned is, and I'm this way with like, not to be TMI, but like my boyfriend as well of where it's like, you can't read my mind, like, what are you fucking kidding me?

Like, you don't know what I want. You don't know exactly how to do what I want. Like do what I want. Like it's not how it works. And I've finally realized that 

Jordan: yes, communication is key communication. Very, very important. I don't know about you. I use Voxer for all of my team communication and loom and calls, but like voice, the voice is like the important part for me.

but you know, I don't do quality control checks anymore because actually once your team gets to a point where they are proficient in doing things the way that you want them done. And you're kind of feeling like you're a little bit just being nitpicky. at least that's how I, I got to this point where I was like, oh my gosh, am I gonna have to like nitpick, teeny tiny little things.

Jordan: I'm gonna have to like, change the font size of this one tiny thing. Or it, it got to a point where it was just like outta control. I'm like, this is not a good use of my time. Mm-hmm and I need to let my team have autonomy and I'm gonna, like, people are gonna get sick of hearing me talk about giving your team autonomy, but it's, it's absolutely critical to at some point, stop being.

that checker, the final check. Otherwise they never have the chance to like step up and be the people who actually create the final product. They're always gonna be relying on you to be the one to create the final product. 

Mackenzie: So I have a question for you. Yes. I hear what you're saying. And I think this is brilliant and I a hundred percent agree, but like my question is as a copywriter, when I'm working with a copywriter slash content writer on my team, who's creating the content for my business.

I feel like I, I kind of just assumed I would forever be checking her shit just because my brand voice is distinct and blah, blah. And I'm just so fucking anal about this shit. Let's be real. But like, I, I feel like, whoa, what you're saying? Like, I could do that, but what do you think? Like I could, as somebody like who's a copywriter and somebody's writing the copy.

Do you get what I'm saying? 

Jordan: For sure. For sure. And I don't know where this is gonna go, but let's find out. I feel the same way about my copy. I have not yet given away my copy, but clearly it's possible because this is what you do for a business. That's true. So lots of people fully hand off their copy.

Do your clients go through and change everything that you create for them? No. Interesting. What do you think that's about?

Mackenzie: okay. That's fair. That's super fair. I was gonna say, well, I write their website and I write their blah, blah, and I like write one off projects and she's doing like, that makes even more sense if she's doing like everyday post, she's gonna get grasp that brand voice much quicker and like more thoroughly than anything else.

Shit. 

Jordan: Yeah. It's a control thing. Yeah. Now I'm the same way. Ooh. 

Mackenzie: That hurts, but it I'm sorry. It makes sense. I'm sorry. 

Jordan: and Hey, like you don't have to give it over if you don't want to. Like, I, like I said, I have not given away my copy. It's maybe like the only thing that I haven't really given away is like content creation.

but I think that's partly like, because I haven't fully wrapped my head around it. My brand voice and my content. And I don't feel like I can outsource it until I have maybe a better understanding, but maybe that's just an excuse. I don't know 

Mackenzie: shit, honey, let's make you a brand voice Bible. 

Jordan: that's what you need.

Yeah. We may need to talk. We may need to talk, because it's definitely like a hangup. These are those little things. The way, the things that we talk ourselves into not being able to relinquish control on are the things that keep sucking the time away. And that used to be pretty much everything in my business.

And now I've finally gotten to the point where I think it's essentially just my copy and my content that I haven't handed over 

Mackenzie: from this conversation alone. I'm like, you are like, you need to rebrand as like the team and structure therapist. Like everything you're saying to me, I feel like is making me look at myself and I'm like, shit, this is therapy on a whole business ass level.

Jordan: I get reactions 

Mackenzie: like that often team, the team therapist, the team instruc. I don't 

Jordan: fucking know. I, I felt bad the other day cuz I was on a, I don't know if I should feel bad, but I was doing a guest speaking, uh, like my presentation, I was virtual wasn't like in person or anything. And I was presenting on 90 day planning and then we were doing Q and a and some, someone said something.

They were like, well, you know, I feel bad because, when I work at night and you know, my husband like doesn't want me to work at night and then, you know, I feel bad and I should have better boundaries. And I was like their boundaries, not your boundaries. Like it was something like that. And they were like, everyone on the call was like, Ooh, who burn?

I called you out. I was like, Don. I think I do that often. I don't usually do that. Like in public places maybe should tone it back a little bit. I don't 

Mackenzie: know. In your next life, you will a hundred percent be a therapist. 

Jordan: You think? Yeah. I was a psychology major. Did you know that? Oh 

Mackenzie: my God, there you go.

Connecting 

Jordan: all the dots. I didn't wanna do like therapy though. I was a, I was not that way. At least I was doing social psychology. So I was doing like experimental design and things like that. Kind of more nerdy, nerdy stuff. 

Mackenzie: Well, it makes sense. And it is appearing and I love every second. 

Jordan: it is fun. It is fun for sure.

Okay. What else do we need to talk about on team pitfalls? What to 

Mackenzie: do, let me ask you really quickly, because I was gonna DM you this, I was thinking about this during our conversation. I'm like, I'm gonna DM her this after, but I'll ask you here. So I actually, because I've mentioned before, like team is such a huge, important, like core part of my business for me that I want to develop and grow and make like a real outstanding, like central thing anyways.

Okay. So I was like, yo, let's do a team retreat. So now we're going to Nashville in September because one of, oh, that's so fun. Um, yeah, my PM is in Nashville. It's just the three of us, but I think that'll be so helpful for so many reasons. So my question for you is if you have any like suggestions on for small teams of three, like how to like team build how to.

I mean, I have like, this is, this is the worst part is that I figured out the goodies that I'm gonna like get them when they get there. And I figured out our activities for night, like margaritas and meditations. Yes. 

Jordan: That's a fun. Oh my gosh. 

Mackenzie: That's awesome. But I'm like, okay, like what team building stuff are we gonna do?

Cause we're gonna do yearly planning and like for 20, 23 . But like, as far as like getting to know a team when it's smaller. Hmm. 

Jordan: Anything come to mind? I don't know. I mean, so what I, what I think back on, because I have not done a team retreat, even though I actually literally like three days ago, wrote this down on my to-do list.

I have a super long backlog, so I put it on my to-do list and then periodically. Put it on a different list because it's not gonna happen anytime soon. but I would also like to do that. And I don't know. I mean, I think you could ask them. I think you could also just like, think about like, if I were a part of a team and you used to be part of a team, so you can kind of think back on that.

I don't know if you did anything in corporate, kind of like in person, stuff like that, but I definitely did cuz I worked in the nonprofit world for a really long time and we would do retreats cause I worked for a company that actually was remote. So we would do an annual staff retreat. I think it kind of depends on the personality of your team, but like, for me, I'm an idea person.

So when I'm on a team, I want to feel like I can share my ideas and actually shape kind of like the path forward. But that's also now why, why I'm an entrepreneur? Cuz I think people just, just do what I say. And that's not necessarily, your role when you're an employee. So I, but I think like really opening it up.

And have you read the book principles by Ray Dalio? No. So who talks about this concept called radical transparency? Which I think is really cool and it, it, I'm gonna get this not perfectly, but the way that I understand it and apply it to my business is making sure that people are. free to give ideas on anything like opportunities to improve, like anything that they want to share about how the business works about clients, about projects, about anything, like lay it on me.

I wanna hear it. And it's, I think he also calls it. Maybe like this is like a related, but also unrelated thing is an idea meritocracy. So it doesn't matter. Who's coming up with the idea it's about the ideas, like value in and of itself. So it could be your VA coming up with it. It could be a contractor.

It could be you like, no one's ideas are necessarily better than anybody else's it's it's about is the idea actually a good idea. 

Mackenzie: You're hitting me with the psychology mean. I'm sorry. Real hard right now. I'm sorry. no, I took notes. I said free to give ideas on anything and I underlined anything like four times.

I don't know. I love that. Like. Even though that's like a simple phrase. I feel like that's something that I need to keep in mind. I was thinking we would do, because on the first day I wanted to do, when we all got there, like a team building bonding activity, and I was like, what can we do? And I'm like, Pinteresting it.

And Pinterest is like, make a human shame and like all these things with like 20 people. And I'm like, no, 

Jordan: we usually just drink. 

Mackenzie: Oh, well we can do that while we, okay. Now I'm adding drinking to it. We were gonna do like vision board creation. Yeah. And like create vision boards about like what we want in the future and how we can help each other get there.

And shit. I was like, that is the cutest thing since like Bernstein bears, but now we're adding drinking. So it's like, I like you not Bernstein bears anymore. 

Jordan: We just drank and played games like Pictionary or, I'm big on catchphrase. surely you like catchphrase, 

Mackenzie: you know, those, I don't know what catch phrase is, but scatter, I am the undefeated champion of my time.

Mm. And that's kind of been a lie. 

Jordan: I , I know I've played categories, but it's been a long time. I don't even know how that game works. I don't think. Yeah. Anyway, games, games and, and booze, I think is like pretty much the best bonding activities. There are. 

Mackenzie: perfect. We're gonna have some afternoon drinks while we vision board 

Jordan: the fuck out of everything.

Yeah. I mean, I it's, what are songs fun to you? 

Mackenzie: I think it's just makes it hard cuz it's like such a small group, but it's also, I like that it's small because we're getting to know each other well and shit. So yeah, just throw some like mimosa in there with the 12 noon vision boarding and it's it's a day.

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, why not easy peasy? I don't think you need to complicate it. It doesn't need to be corporatey unless you like wanted to. And that's your vibe? No, not my vibe. I know it's not yours. I know it's not yours. What else? Okay. Team, team building team loyalty. I don't know. I, maybe I should bring my team on here and talk to them cuz I feel like everyone on my team is super loyal and connected.

Mackenzie: Why have you not had an episode with your whole ass team 

Jordan: yet? Yeah. I'll just bring all 15 of 'em on here. That would be 

Mackenzie: maybe segments divided into 

Jordan: threes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I would, because I would be curious to know. I mean, I don't know. I it's hard to know how you're actually perceived. I know what I try to do.

I don't know if any of it really works. Like I try to express my appreciation often to everyone on my team, because again, like my business. Model doesn't work without my team. Mm-hmm so I'm always telling them, like, this would not be possible without you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I like to do little stuff like at holidays, and this was an idea that I stole from someone and I can't remember who I stole it for, but or from, but, holidays and just different, like celebrations.

I get a Starbucks gift card and I just put a ton of money on it. And then I send the screenshot of the barcode to everyone on the team and I'm like, go get Starbucks on me. And I just keep reloading it. like little stuff like that. 

Mackenzie: I love that. I'm like a, I'm a huge gift giver, like gift giving is one of my love languages aside from words of affirmation, if you didn't see that coming um, so I like send all my new team members, like very.

Like intricately curated gifts that I spend like an hour on, on the same way, this website, bell and blush. If anybody hasn't used it, I'm obsessed. Cuz the packages are so cute when they send 'em, but I spend forever and I'm like, and then they get 'em and I they're always so like grateful and they're like, oh my God, I love this.

This is so perfect for me. And I'm like, but do you love it? Yeah. It perfect for 

Jordan: you. It really was it perfect. I 

Mackenzie: put in hours. Do we not love 

Jordan: it? Yeah. Yeah. I do the same thing. I use box box, but I Tru I cheat because I on my client, my not my clients. Well on my clients intake form, I do this too, but on my team intake form, I ask them.

If a gift basket arrived to your house, what would be in it? And I give them like 12 options. I dirty 

Mackenzie: ho I know I say, what's your favorite color? What's your favorite drink? What's your favorite snack? Mm, but 

Jordan: yours is good. Yeah. I give a bunch of different options, cuz there's like an option for candles.

There's an option for like books. There's like all these different options. They get to pick as many as they want. And then I, based on what I think I know about them and their answers go spend an ungodly amount of time on box box. Yeah. Making a custom 

Mackenzie: box. You've gotta try bell and blush. I'm gonna send you my coupon 

Jordan: code after that.

Okay. Well I'll send you my box box coupon code and then we can just get like some rewards for each other. You have you used box 

Mackenzie: box or gotten one before I have used Fox box, it didn't have as many options as bell and blush, and they don't even give coupon codes, but I emailed them and I said, I spend an absurd amount of money on your website.

Can I get a coupon code? And they're like, here you 

Jordan: go. yeah. I'm like a platinum used on box box. Love it. That's awesome. Well, I am, high on, I think it's individual individualized individual, something on strengths finder. I don't know if you've taken strengths finder in the last like decade. I feel like people used to take that more often.

Mackenzie: I have not. I people, I know I'm an Agram seven. Does that count? 

Jordan: Mm. Yeah, you're the opposite of me. You're a, I'm a one. I'm a one 

Mackenzie: mm-hmm I don't know how many gram shit works. Yeah. I was like, let me divide seven by two 

Jordan: seven by two. . Well, you'd be a 

Mackenzie: 3.5. There you go. I'll fucking know.

Jordan: All right. What else? So we've talked gifts, we've talked loyalty team building, hiring where to find people. What else do people really need to know about team? I can go on about this forever. I'm obsessed with team. 

Mackenzie: Can I tell you my three to wrap things up? My three things that I learned that I think everybody needs to know?

Yes. Did you prep for this in advance? No, but I'm like really great on the spot when I sell you. Oh, okay. I love it. Go for it. Oh, wow. Number one. I did not prep for this enough. Okay. Number one. is to onboard balls to the wall. That's not saying to onboard thoroughly, no throw thoroughly out the window.

This is balls to the wall. You are showing them. You care in all aspects of the word. You are sending them a bell and blush box socks gift with our coupon coats, you are giving them all the SOP, all the things. So onboarding two, I would say don't be super fucking impulsive like me, just because you're excited.

Let's tone it down. Let's take a step back. Let's take a breather, maybe sleep on it tonight and then decide. Perfect. Number two. That's my number two, my number three. Oh, I feel like there's a really obvious one. And as soon as I get off of this podcast, I'm gonna be like, 

Jordan: SHA. That was my, OK. I'm gonna pause you while you're thinking about it.

Cuz you're gonna remember, I love how you were like, can I share my three things, like as if you knew exactly what they were and then you clearly made those up on the fly? I did. That's so awesome. on number two, are you talking about slowing your role so that you can make sure that the per the specific person that you're hiring is the right person?

Yes. Or hiring in 

Mackenzie: general hiring the right person. So like once you're like, okay, I need a social media. Well, it could work for both, but like, if you're like, I need a social media manager and you post a, job description, not necessarily deciding within the hour. Okay. Because I've been there. Okay. And I have not slowed my role and it has not been helpful.

You gotta just, I mean, maybe have a Bev. Relax on your porch. I don't know, do something to take your mind off of it because I get way too excited. And I'm like, who's on my team today. Okay. We are deciding right now within the 

Jordan: hour. do you know, do you know your human design? 

Mackenzie: I'm a manifesting generator. Me 

Jordan: too.

Oh my God. We move fast. We, and we like to take action on our ideas, like immediately. 

Mackenzie: That is so me. That makes sense. That is a hundred percent me. Okay. For sure. Well, my number three is to invest emotion. I was gonna say, invest emotionally in your team, but not, not emotionally as much as like, how was I saying this earlier to like where you invest your time in them and they will invest their time in you.

Yeah. What is a good way of saying. 

you get out what you put in 

Mackenzie: you get out what you put in. So put in what you wanna get out. That's exactly it, that's an actionable way of saying it, that when you care about them, they will care about the job they're doing and they will care about the business that they're helping you build.

Jordan: Yeah. Boom. Yeah. I think you really, you really do have to find people who are bought into your mission. I think this is especially important for small businesses for solo printers, as you're bringing people on, like people who really are in it with you, at least that that has been important for me and has been something that I don't think everyone says upfront when they're hiring contractors.

But when I started bringing on contractors, like the day after I started my business, I had a team of almost a dozen within like 30 days. The one thing that I would constantly bring up is like, I'm looking for people who are in this for the long term. Like I'm not looking for people who are gonna come in and maybe like dabble for a month or two, and then go like transition their business to something totally different.

And they're just like, you know, yeah. Maybe I wanna be a VA. Maybe I wanna, like, that's not what I'm looking for because consistency is what we do for our clients and like delivering really high quality work. And we can't do that if we have a lot of turnover. And so I even ask a question on the intake form to reinforce this and depending on like how people respond, it helps me determine, okay, well, is this just gonna be a trial?

And we're gonna see, or like, is this really actually not a good fit? So another reason. Not to get locked into anything. But, I asked them like, where do you see yourself in three years? And if they're telling this story about this thing they're gonna be doing, that's like totally different than what we're doing right now.

Like that's probably not gonna work for me. Yeah. And that's not to say that everyone who joins my team is gonna be with me in three or five or 10 years. But like, I am looking for people who wanna like, be part of something and be part of a team. Right. Not just like, use this as like a stepping stone to get to something else.

That's not what we're shit building. That's so good. That's so good. Thanks. I'm gonna have you on regularly cuz you just give me compliments on everything. I say 

Mackenzie: the therapist with all the answers that's you. 

Jordan: I thought therapists weren't supposed to talk. I feel like I talked too much to be a therapist.

The talking 

Mackenzie: therapist. Hello? The new new 

Jordan: podcast. Yeah, the therapist that doesn't let you get a word in edgewise. 

Mackenzie: perfect. I love it. It's perfect. 

Jordan: Oh, well this was so fun. We will put in the show now how people can find you. We'll put our coupon codes for box box and the other one. What was it? Box Fox box box bell and blush box Fox and bell and blush.

Okay. I'm gonna go look them up after this. I used another one called happy box as well. They definitely, they don't have as much variety, but it's the only one I could find who would ship internationally. And I have international clients. 

Mackenzie: Oh yeah. Bell and blush only ships to like Canada. I have a real issue with shipping internationally with people.

I tried to like ship to like South Africa. Yeah. And this woman literally who I sent it to a client was like, oh, sorry, I can't pick it up. The mail, the mail box station. What is that called? The post office, the post office closed because they didn't pay rent. what, 

Jordan: oh my gosh. I give up, I give up. Yeah. Yeah.

If anyone knows and they're listening to this a really great company that ships internationally for like custom boxes, custom gift boxes, please let me know. happy box is okay. It, it gets the job done for sure. But we'll put all this information in the show notes. Is there anything else you wanna leave us with that we think we need to share about hiring and team?

Yes. 

Mackenzie: Well, I would say go with your gut, go on the vibes and when in doubt, hire Jordan. 

Jordan: There you go. Perfect. Perfect place to end. All right. Thank you so much. This was a ton of fun, so much fun.